UJ too big for my prop?

[pde2000]

Having the prop off to replace the diff, I foolishly decided to replace a worn UJ, which was a bit loose and rattly. Having removed the clips, and bashed out the old cups, the new one went in easily enough, but only one side could be made to go in far enough for the circlip on both sides. The means that not only are a pair of the cups un-circlipped but also the prop is now a bit eccentric. This is the joint at the diff end. Could it be that the UJ is too big? It's from a reputable minor dealer, and labelled MG, etc on the box.

The replaced diff is the old 1:5.365 one which whines, and with the off center prop the whine is cyclic. I have no plans to go on a dual carriage way, and the engine is much happier driving the lower ratio, but I would be happier with a UJ fitted properly. Any ideas?

[Sleeper]

Take it apart and start again,with plenty of grease to hold the rollers in place , if one drops out you'll be back at square one....

John

[oliver90owner]

Get it put right is my advice. A flailing propshaft is not a nice thought. If you were lucky the propshaft might lay in the road.... but it could also enter the vehicle.

Most likely you have displaced a needle roller and that is preventing the cup from seating properly if, indeed, the UJ is the correct one.

I would not even consider fitting a propshaft out of balance with parts missing.

[IslipMinor]

Without being in the least dramatic - DO NOT use the car until the propshaft UJ has been assembled correctly!

The problem is very likely that one, or more, of the needle rollers has fallen into the bottom of a cup or cups, and so prevents the spider from going fully into the cup.

Take it completely to pieces, clean out the 4 cups, use plenty of lithium-based grease in each cup and arrange the needle rollers around the outside of each cup. Then, reassemble following the Workshop Manual instructions.

To download a proper BMC Workshop Manual, type in 'Morris Minor Workshop Manual' into Google and the most likely first site listed will offer a free .pdf download - the site name looks a bit 'fishy'!

[pde2000]

I am not happy driving the car with the uj like it is. It was my first thought that a needle had got out. Nothing has loosened up since doing it though. I thought maybe the joint was bigger because the old one has no grease nipple. The prop was swapped by Eddy Pepper, of Danbury if anyone remembers him, but i cant remember why. When I got a new box the sliding joint had to be ground in because the steel tube was too wide for it, so maybe the prop is not regular. The new uj was this one; http://www.morrisminorspares.com/rear-s ... le-p831259

Pushing out the replacement uj is not easy, and probably going to destroy it (needles spewed everywhere), so i have to be sure. Another idea is to take out the 2 circlips and push the cups together to center them, but then there would be no circlips. With at least one circlip in per pair it is impossible for the spider to come out, or for the prop to come undone and fall off. It would get propper clonky long before a cup fell out.

Will probably just get another uj and take the prop to a mechanic - have to accept defeat sometimes.

[oliver90owner]

Very risky doing anything other than putting it right. Islip minor is right to warn in the strongest terms. I should have done also.

The propshaft is turning at engine speed in top gear and possibly under more load in lower gears. If it were to come apart, you may well not have time to avoid a disaster. The front of that propshaft is not far behind you!

Would you deliberately drive your car with the front (or any) wheel nuts loose? I would hope the answer would be in the negative.

IF I had to drive it, I would be tightening one or two jubilee clips around the UJ and proceeding VERY slowly and carefully to the nearest decent engineer. If you were to become a statistic, the evidence is here to show that you were warned in the strongest possible terms!

RAB

[philthehill]

The UJ in the link above is the correct one and if following the procedure in the workshop manual it is a reasonable easy job to do.

There is no requirement to bash anything.

Remove the circlips and the cups can be pressed out.
I suspect that a needle roller has ended up between the cup and the head of the cross - a common problem if the needles are not set properly in the first place.
As above totally dangerous to drive not only for you for anyone in the vicinity when the universal joint blows apart.
Do not drive the car and get it fixed pronto.

[pde2000]

I've had a prop set itself free on the motorway, many years ago, so not an experience i want to repeat. That time it was the sliding joint of the gearbox having seized up and eventually tearing apart. The prop was still retained by the final drive shaft off the gearbox (splined) but as this got bent the prop was knocking around under me, and i pulled over pronto. That must have been why I changed the prop for another one. I think it must be a loose needle, as the cups were getting pushed together horizontally, and the book recommends doing it vertically. Need to take the vice off to do that or get a special tool.

The old cups had to be bashed out, they were well and truly seized in there.

[shoebone]

I replaced a uj earlier this year, could not get both circlips in no matter how I tried. The new uj measured just 0.3mm bigger but its enough to cause trouble. I took the propshaft to a local drive shaft specialist who put the thing together correctly and balanced it too. I didn't think it needed balancing before but what a difference ... nice and smooth. I like to work on my own car, don't trust too many people these days, but i'm glad I used a recommended specialist on this occasion.

[oliver90owner]

0.3mm? I would respectfully suggest that most likely the yokes on the propshaft had been distorted (bent) slightly by the use of excessive force while changing the UJ, either at the time, or at a previous change.

An out-of-balance propshaft can shorten the life of its universal joints, but likewise a worn joint can cause vibration as well. It can often be a 'chicken and egg' situation where either one (balance or wear) could be the root cause of the problem.

RAB

[53lake]

I read this post with interest as I experienced the exact same issue replacing a UJ with one purchased from ESM last year. The brand was Powertune RGUJ115, made in Taiwan.

I just could not get the two circlips to fit snugly in the grooves on both sides. One or the other, but not both. It wasn't a needle gone adrift in the cup, the clearance needed was far less than a needle width. I considered if the yokes were bent from a previous bodge, but then they wouldn't line up for the cups to go in smoothly, right? So I ordered a different brand GKN/Hardy Spicer joint from Moss, and that fitted like a dream (at twice the price....). The circlip thicknesses on both brands were identical. I compared the width of the two joints side by side and there was a slight difference with the cups pressed hard together. I don't have a caliper, but the ESM one was clearly wider by enough to stop one circlip from seating. I guess you get what you pay for.

But now I have another issue: the grease fittings are long and hit against the the yoke ear so the joints don't swing the same arc each way.
The MM workshop manual says to "ensure the lubricator boss is fitted away from the yoke", but it seems to me either way the nipple will foul an ear. What am I missing here? I haven't put the propshaft in yet, I just can't believe the nipples should limit the available arc.
Any thoughts please? Perhaps a picture of how the grease nipple should be oriented would help.
Thanks!

[Mark Wilson]

I don't give up easily, but fitting the UJs was one of the few jobs I've had outside help with. £30 + VAT two years ago at a local specialist, including balancing. PM me if you happen to be within reach of Leeds and would like details.

[Pete Bags]

But now I have another issue: the grease fittings are long and hit against the the yoke ear so the joints don't swing the same arc each way.
The MM workshop manual says to "ensure the lubricator boss is fitted away from the yoke", but it seems to me either way the nipple will foul an ear. What am I missing here? I haven't put the propshaft in yet, I just can't believe the nipples should limit the available arc.
Any thoughts please? Perhaps a picture of how the grease nipple should be oriented would help.
Thanks!

Interesting! I replaced (actually my local garage did) the UJs last year - on the old UJs, the old grease nipples were considerably longer and my old grease gun locked on without a problem - the new grease nipples are shorter, and my old grease gun head won't fit through the flange/yoke gap at any angle that the prop shaft is turned, so my local garage have been greasing them with their small headed grease gun. I tried using my small 'push' grease gun, but the grease just spilled out around the nipple rather than going into the nipple - can anyone recommend a simple, small headed grease gun that will clamp around the nipple? Many thanks!

[oliver90owner]

Fitting new universal joints is not a difficult task. Between my brother and myself we have fitted hundreds over the years - mostly agricultural PTO shafts, but a smattering of vehicle versions. Pressing is always the option - bashing is likely to cause deformation. Care in re-assembly is needed, clearly. After umpteen, one realises that it is only inexperience that causes problems.

[53lake]

I posted my experience with fitting new UJ's last month. Now I've finished the job successfully, thought I'd post my thoughts.

I'd ordered 2 UJ's from ESM, DIF15. The brand was Powertune RGUJ115, made in Taiwan.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I just could not get the two circlips to fit snugly in the grooves on both sides. One or the other, but not both. It wasn't a needle gone adrift in the cup, the clearance needed was far less than a needle width. I considered if the yokes were bent from a previous bodge, but then they wouldn't line up for the cups to go in smoothly, right? So I ordered a different brand GKN/Hardy Spicer joint from Moss, and that fitted like a dream (at twice the price....). The circlip thicknesses on both brands were identical. I compared the width of the two joints side by side and there was a slight difference with the cups pressed hard together. I don't have a caliper, but the ESM one was clearly wider by enough to stop one circlip from seating. I guess you get what you pay for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That was one end. On the other, the ESM joint fitted OK width-wise, but no matter which way I oriented the grease nipple, it hit the yoke ear before the full arc. I said:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
But now I have another issue: the grease fittings are long and hit against the the yoke ear so the joints don't swing the same arc each way. The MM workshop manual says to "ensure the lubricator boss is fitted away from the yoke", but it seems to me either way the nipple will foul an ear. What am I missing here? I haven't put the propshaft in yet, I just can't believe the nipples should limit the available arc.
Any thoughts please? Perhaps a picture of how the grease nipple should be oriented would help.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I realized since that the nipples must face towards the center of the propshaft, also that one of the ears on the shaft has a slight indentation in the casting on one side. CLUE! The nipple must face that indentation to get the needed clearance. But even in that configuration the ESM joint nipple touched the ear. So finally I ordered another GKN joint from Moss, installed that, and even though the nipple was longer, it did not foul the ear. The angle that the nipple thread is drilled into the casting is very slightly different between the two brands. The Moss one fits, the ESM one doesn't.

I have to conclude that the Taiwan parts don't have the same quality control as GKN. Lesson learned
Interested to know if others have had the same experience.

[philthehill]

The U/J in operation will not require full arc movement so the grease nipple will be clear of the yokes.

https://www.morrisminorspares.com/rear- ... 15-p831259

There should be no indentation in the yoke to accommodate the grease nipple.

[53lake]

Hi Phil,

I was probably over-analyzing this situation regarding the needed arc swing in actual operation. I'm aware of the potential consequences of a propshaft failure and this just didn't seem right to me.

I'm not the original owner of this Minor, so it's possible the propshaft has been changed out, but mine does have the slight indentation I'm trying to describe. It's a Hardy Spicer make. See pics attached of one end, both sides. It's clearly part of the original casting, there are no file marks! Both end of the propshaft are the same. If not done to accommodate a longer grease nipple, then I wonder why.

I finger-tightened the nipple in for the pic, I'm aware it isn't all the way in.

Thanks! I'm still new to this forum (but not to Morris Minors) and already appreciate your excellent input.

Robert

IMG_3623.jpg (759.04 KiB) Viewed 1938 times

IMG_3622.jpg (784.93 KiB) Viewed 1938 times

[StillGotMy1stCar]

The indentation often found on smaller UJ yokes is to allow clearance for the grease gun end when greasing.
Regards John

[oliver90owner]

I’ve never before seen a grease nipple on an extension like that, fitted to a UJ. UJs are not designed to drive at wide angles (that is why CV joints are used, after all?). Some need to look up the limits for UJ operation, I think.

Indeed, many modern UJs are fitted with a blanking plug and only greased at long service intervals.