painting gold seal engine

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paul 300358
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby paul 300358 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:06 am

If its working ok then I would be tempted to leave it alone and consider looking for a ribbed gearbox.

geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:31 am

paul 300358 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:06 am
If its working ok then I would be tempted to leave it alone and consider looking for a ribbed gearbox.
But then do I not have an issue with either modifying the gearbox with the earlier gearlever extension, or have to modify the car to suit the shorter gearstick, which incidentally I don't wish to do because the long gearstick is part of the appeal of the SII.
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paul 300358
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby paul 300358 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:34 pm

Ah, in that case I would start looking for the back plate etc and store for the day they are needed.

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philthehill
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby philthehill » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:35 pm

I would agree with Paul - if it working leave well alone.

You now know what you have and it can remedied at a later date if you so decide.

I have tried all sorts of combinations of rear engine plates and clutches over the years and they can all be made to work with a bit of ingenuity and thought.

In the past I have had to bend the release lever to suit and grind away the carbon thrust so as to clear the first motion shaft.

The current clutch in my Minor is a heavy duty diaphragm rally type suitable for a Ford RS 2000, is of 7.5" dia on a special steel flywheel and is actioned by a roller concentric release bearing from a Marina mounted on a special carrier, is operated by modified release arm and a hydraulic slave cylinder from a MG Midget with a AP remote master cylinder located on the gearbox cross member. So anything goes if you can get the right combination of parts.

I personally would leave well alone and enjoy.

Phil


geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:09 pm

Hi Phil
Thanks for the reassurance.
As I mentioned in one of the earlier posts, I have recently found the clutch slipping on uphills in 4th, but I only adjusted if for doing that probably some 300-400 miles or so ago.
Could this need for frequent adjustment be as a result of your earlier observation about clutch release bearing travel?
philthehill wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:39 pm
The thicker rear engine plate pushes the gearbox back a little which makes the clutch release bearing travel further.
The thin rear engine plate is fitted for a purpose and is relative to the 948cc clutch assy.

philthehill wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:47 pm

If the case is smooth you may have the 948cc gearbox with the 803cc extension fitted - a modification along a well trod path.

If you have the smooth case gearbox you may have the 948cc flywheel, 948cc clutch cover and 948cc driven plate.
The 1098cc clutch pressure plate will not fit inside a 948cc bell housing and must use the 1098cc flywheel.
Is there a way to tell, from Pt No or Serial No, if the box is a 948, or if it's even the original 803?
As it is a smooth case, and the 1098 Clutch assembly won't fit in it anyway, doesn't that mean it must have the smaller clutch flywheel fitted?
So isn't the only issue here that the wrong engine plate is fitted between it all?

Or am I totally confused still?
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ampwhu
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:41 pm

gears are different between 803 and 948 boxes. not easy to tell by looking but an 803 box has a pathetic 1st gear. this means upon pulling away, you get about 20 ft before having to change to 2nd gear.

Another thing that's different is the 3rd gear. if you have an 803 its not a lot different to 2nd. 948 3rd is good for overtaking, 803 isn't.

chances are you will have 803 internals as there aren't many people willing to dismantle the box and swap gears over.

if you want to improve the drive, just fit a better diff. leave the box as it is and fit a better ratio diff. on your engine i'd suggest 4.22 from a 1098 MM or late A35 van.

in regards to back plate, you say your going to need to look at the clutch. pull the engine out and fit a 803/948 backplate with clutch. refit it all and drive the car and enjoy it for years to come.

where are you located?

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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:30 pm

Hi
I'm East Midlands, between Nottingham and Grantham.

Sounds like I have a pure 803 box, just from your description of the performance in 1st. :)
Unless it's uphill, I tend to just pull away in 2nd.

Am I right in thinking with this smooth gearbox fitted, there must by default be a 803/948 Flywheel and Clutch fitted, because a 1098 simply wouldn't fit (unless something really strange and wacky is fitted instead :wink: )?
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:14 pm

i'd say so. 803 box is not very good in my view. if your after an original car, then so be it. i'm into modifying my cars.

so you have 1098 engine, 1098 back plate, 803/948 gearbox and clutch. As Phil says, the difference in the back plate thickness makes all the difference to setting the clutch up.

i'd be on the look out for a 803/948 thin backplate then. That way, when you remove the engine/box to do the clutch or paint the engine, you could swap it then.

whilst the engine is out and you change the backplate, i'd check the rear core plug and oil pump. that's for another day :D :D

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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:17 pm

bare in mind that running a 1098 with a 803 box is fine, but that's a lot more power going through it than the old 803 engine. ive not had a problem with mine, but i'd changed the internals to 948 to cope with the extra power. it runs lovely now.

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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:55 am

Thanks ampwhu

Taking the engine out to check the core plug has always been on the back of my mind as when we brought basil 2 years ago there was a small but getting worse leak from the forward core plug, behind the dynamo. So I replaced that one, the other 2 looked OK still, but the hidden one is the great unknown.
I think engine out to change the plate, and also the core plug while I'm at it, is one of this winter's jobs. Like you say, a look at the oil pump too while it's accessible.

The fact that the clutch has started to slip so soon after last being adjusted makes me wonder if it is contaminated, worn out, or is just a consequence of this wrong plate being in there. :cry:
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:14 am

ampwhu wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:41 pm
gears are different between 803 and 948 boxes. not easy to tell by looking but an 803 box has a pathetic 1st gear. this means upon pulling away, you get about 20 ft before having to change to 2nd gear.

Another thing that's different is the 3rd gear. if you have an 803 its not a lot different to 2nd. 948 3rd is good for overtaking, 803 isn't.

chances are you will have 803 internals as there aren't many people willing to dismantle the box and swap gears over.

if you want to improve the drive, just fit a better diff. leave the box as it is and fit a better ratio diff. on your engine i'd suggest 4.22 from a 1098 MM or late A35 van.
I've managed to speak to the chap who rebuilt the gearbox back in 2003.
A 1 man workshop in Cheshire, his wife answered the phone and she had to call him in from the workshop :)
He says if he wrote on the receipt "948/803 Morris Minor Rebuild Gearbox" then as best as he could say after 16 years, he would assume he rebuilt the 803 with 948 gears.
He said he would not normally do that, but if asked especially, then he would.
I didn't tell him I have discovered it was mounted to a 1098... :-?

Are there any other pointers to spotting a 803 box with 948 gearing??

After your comment about the 803 needing a gear change after 20ft, what's the 948 box like in that regard?
That might be my definitive comparison... :)
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby firedrake1942 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:28 pm

It’s not much better to be honest. I reckon 30 feet and a change into second. It will happily pull away from stationary in 2nd. Btw I wouldn’t worry overly with DVLA I tried for years to tell them about my replacement engine number and they never updated the V5. My solution was to get a new engine numberplate with the old number on it so now the records match ‘reality.’

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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:16 pm

in regards to the difference on the internals, I would say Phil may know the answer as he's got a lot more experience than most. I do know that the speedo drive is different. One is plastic and one is metal. Phil again may know the difference.

With your box, can you drop the gear to 3rd to overtake and how long before you need to change to 4th? There is where I noticed the difference between the 2 when I had the box built.

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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:37 pm

firedrake1942 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:28 pm
It’s not much better to be honest. I reckon 30 feet and a change into second. It will happily pull away from stationary in 2nd. Btw I wouldn’t worry overly with DVLA I tried for years to tell them about my replacement engine number and they never updated the V5. My solution was to get a new engine numberplate with the old number on it so now the records match ‘reality.’
Basil will happily pull away in 2nd.

My problem with DVLA will be that 19 years ago the owner had a garage note to say it was 'X' Serial number and to the best as they could ascertain without stripping it, it was a 948. Clearly they never looked at the Block number. I'll save that problem for a rainy day... :roll:
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:42 pm

ampwhu wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:16 pm
in regards to the difference on the internals, I would say Phil may know the answer as he's got a lot more experience than most. I do know that the speedo drive is different. One is plastic and one is metal. Phil again may know the difference.

With your box, can you drop the gear to 3rd to overtake and how long before you need to change to 4th? There is where I noticed the difference between the 2 when I had the box built.
Overtake?
What's that?
Can't say I've ever tried to drop it to 3rd to do such a thing as 4th seems to handle anything over 25-30mph. I'll clearly have to pay more attention to gears and speeds for a while.... :lol:
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