Ital engine to Minor gearbox.

[midget]

Just about to fit Midget gearbox to the A+ engine with conversion bits from Esm.
Need to pick a new clutch kit complete, and need to know which would be the better option--Midget or Minor? They are listed separately, but what is the difference--apart from Hydraulic/mechanical operating option?
I will be using the mechanical operation with "declan" linkage with a roller bearing thrust.

I am aware that the AP is the one to go for.

[philthehill]

The main difference between the Midget 1275cc and 1098cc clutch is the diameter size and the 1098cc clutch has a spring clutch cover whilst the 1275cc has a diaphragm clutch cover.
If you are using the modified 1098cc flywheel from ESM and looking at the link below the modified flywheel requires the Minor 1098cc clutch.
The ESM modified flywheel is not drilled for the 1275cc Midget clutch cover - that has a different PCD bolt arrangement to suit the smaller diameter clutch cover.

http://www.morrisminorspares.com/engine ... ge-p830100

As regards the 1098cc Midget clutch cover and the Minor 1098cc clutch cover - they are both listed under the same part number GCC114 (MOSS).

[midget]

Thanks Phil. Didn't realise the differing mounting to Flywheel, or different type despite Midget ownership previously.
Yes, I'm using the ESM flywheel (and backplate) that you suggest. Do you agree with the recommendations on here of the AP kit?

[philthehill]

John
The clutch covers, centre driven plates and thrusts are much of a muchness and so you pays your money and takes your chance.
Personally I would use an original used 1098cc clutch cover in good condition - so long as the pressure plate has not been scored there is little to go wrong with it.
Replace the centre driven plate and thrust.
Use a centre driven plate from Peter May Racing or Front Line Developments, Steventon (not far from you) as they will only sell you parts that are suitable and up to the task in hand.

https://www.petermayengineering.com/cat ... catalogue5

http://www.frontlinedevelopments.com/contact/

Phil

[midget]

Thanks for advice, and yes Steventon is not far--in fact I have just driven through there! Also know a couple of employees.
Thought they were more into Type 9 box conversions and expensive MG stuff. I will give them a try.
Another issue has just cropped up concerning the first motion input shaft nose location. I was under the impression that this procedure needed the swapping of the needle roller bearing to a PB bush to mate up the box to A+ crank. I find that the bush is a sloppy fit in the shaft AND the crank, more so than the original needle roller! Also the bush "disappeares" into the crank so much so that I think the bearing was a better fit than the bush. Where am I going wrong?

Edited to say that the bearing could only be removed with an internal puller, whilst the bush pushes in and out with my pinky!

[philthehill]

John
The bush does not fit into the end of the crankshaft - The bush for the first motion shaft is fitted into the bush carrier which fits into the centre of the modified 1098cc flywheel.
See link photos especially the third photo which shows the rear face of the modified flywheel with bush carrier installed:-
http://www.morrisminorspares.com/engine ... ge-p830100

Phil

[midget]

Ah, I see.
That is the F/wheel I have. So was there any need to extract the original bearing, as it will be well clear of the shaft when fitted?

Something must be wrong here--not disputing your analysis-- but just tried it as you say, and everything is very sloppy.
As far as i can see there are 3 steps in the crank aperture. The bush is far too small to locate in the first 2 and impossible in the third.
The fit of the bush over the shaft is very loose and nowhere near the outside diameter of the modded flywheel.
The only thing I can think of is the type of the input shaft may be from an earlier box. Were they different to the 1098?
I salvaged this shaft from a scrap box, but not sure of the origin. This still doesn't explain the poor fit in the flywheel though?

[philthehill]

John
The original roller bearing is required to be remove to enable the bush carrier to be fitted into the end of the crankshaft.

Do you have the bush carrier as you do not mention it?

The bush as I said above does not fit into the flywheel or the end of the crankshaft only into the bush carrier.

The first motion shaft - as regards the front end of the first motion shaft as far as I know they are all the same.
The bush should not be a tight fit over the first motion shaft as the first motion shaft has to freely rotate inside the bush.

I have attached the fitting instruction from the Frontline Developments gearbox conversion - whilst not exactly the same - the same fitting approach has to be taken as regards the similar bush and bush carrier.
http://frontline-developments.s3.amazon ... -speed.pdf

Phil

[midget]

Phil
I assume the bush carrier is the centre piece protruding from the rear of the Flywheel as in your picture? Yes that is present but too large a diameter to "carry" the bush.
If it did all would be well.
I will send a picture in the morning which may back up my explanation.

Sorry to keep you up!

[philthehill]

John
Have you got the right first motion shaft bush to suit the carrier?
This is the standard bush that fits into the rear of a 948cc/1098cc crankshaft.
http://www.morrisminorspares.com/engine ... sh-p830249
In the MOSS parts list it quotes the bush Pt No: 1A559 as being 5/8" OD. So if the ID of the bush carrier is larger than 5/8" there must be a special bush used.
I have a feeling that the bush you require is shaped liked those in the photos below.
The raised shoulder fits into the recess at the front of the bush carrier.
I have sent a message to ESM requesting information regarding the bush required for use with a Marina engine and 1275cc Midget gearbox as I can only find the standard spigot bush on their web site.
Phil

[midget]

Yes Phil. That looks like is what is required. As you say, the plain bush that they sent is as your first pic, and no alternative listed.
I thought the bush was a like for like replacement for the bearing IN the crank end. Begs the question, why not supply correct shouldered bush WITH the conversion Flywheel?
At least I understand the problem now! I ill order one from Moss. Any thing else that I should be aware of?

[philthehill]

John
That MOSS part number for the spigot bus relates to a standard bush and not the one for the bush carrier.
I cannot think of anything at the moment - if anything comes to mind I will let you know.
Phil

[Nickol]

The clutch relay bush is the second Picture exists to purchase? That is shame - I had to get two made up specially for my LHD conversion. Wish I had known about this then .....


Nothing to do with the thread itself but I am reading Phils informative advice at 09:49 CET, a whole hour before the given time of 10:42 ( which I assume is GMT)

[philthehill]

The first picture with the ghost ESM printed on is of the relay shaft bush (Pt No: COM111 (ESM)) (Pt No: AAA3750 (MOSS) and was posted as a generic type/style carrier bush..
The second bush picture is a bush specifically made for a bush carrier but do not know its details..

[midget]

Pics and dimensions of what I have, and both type of spigot.
Cannot believe that this has not been done many times before. I accept that Ital engines are pretty rare now, but surely the crank is the same as Marina? Why do "suppliers" offer Flywheel/backplate and no bush?
Moss site is difficult to navigate and cannot find the part that Phil has suggested, so will call them Monday.
Nuclear option is to have a bush made I suppose? Should have gone back to my original plan and fitted Ital box as I do have the parts--I THINK!

Need to fit front suspension, so will probably abandon this temporarily and refit the original 1098+box to complete or this project will drag on for even longer 16 months and counting!


Esm flywheel ID...........0.702
Esm P/B bush OD.........0.628
Ital bearing OD............0.755

[philthehill]

John
I would be tempted to pop into Front Line Developments and take the bush carrier and first motion shaft with you and see what bush they use.
They may be able to supply a suitable bush to keep the job moving forward.
Phil

[midget]

Will do Phil, first thing monday.
Thanks for interest and advice. I'll let you know what transpires.

[philthehill]

John
I have just finished speaking with ESM as regards the spigot bush/bush carrier/first motion shaft.
The spigot bush fits into the rear of the crankshaft as normal and not into what I referred to as the bush carrier unlike the Frontline Developments adapter/bush carrier
According to ESM the adapter is only used as a guide
Therefore the first motion shaft passes through the 'bush carrier'/guide and the front of the first motion shaft fits into the spigot bush located in the rear of the crankshaft.

Hopefully armed with the above information you can now move forward but reading your OD dimensions of the Marina spigot roller needle bearing and the Minor FB spigot bush it may not be that easy to resolve.

If the diameter of the first motion shaft where it fits into the spigot bearing is the same for the 1275cc engine as the 1098cc engine (measure the shafts that appear in your photo above) the 1275cc engine needle roller spigot bearing should be able to be used.

Phil

[midget]

Thanks for that Phil. Have been waiting for reply from Doug at ESM who seem confused as to the way forward.
I am trying to send him detailed picture of the problem, but Email for them is for contact text only I think? I'll get a better address from him tomorrow.
If you look at the difference in length of the spigots in my pics I am unsure which Bush and where it would locate in the crank.
The measurements were taken with a vernier so approximate.

The Frontline visit was unfruitful I'm afraid--they don't make parts themselves and only concerned with Type 9 stuff, but they did give me
their outside supplier who could probably make something when I know what I want!
I was hoping that someone who has used this conversion previously would have posted something here.

[midget]

Just to wind this up, I had a custom made bush made to fit the centre of the Flywheel of the correct internal size for the Midget spigot.
SMMC completed this task on the spot in 30 minutes.

Many thanks to JLH for "heads up" and Phil for, as usual, sound advice and support.

Anyone contemplating this procedure would be well advised to ensure that the conversion parts are indeed relative to parts that are being actually used!

I'll say no more!