Front brake shoe steady springs.

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JOWETTJAVELIN
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Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby JOWETTJAVELIN » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:56 pm

I'm replacing the brakes and as I put the new shoes on it dawned on me there were no shoe retaining/beehive springs. I don't have access to a workshop manual to check how things should be, but a look at the Moss exploded diagram does not show any retaining springs. Were they fitted or not?
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taupe
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby taupe » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:23 pm

Yes you should have steady pins retaining cups and springs 2 per side at the front

Beehives at the rear two per side..Not sure if the series 5 had them if there are holes in the backplates for the pins then I would fit them....

Page MK 5 in the parts list

Taupe

les
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby les » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:55 pm

They can be a fiddle to fit, which is enough to make some folk give up. This may have been the case with a previous owner. These people are about!


JOWETTJAVELIN
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby JOWETTJAVELIN » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:25 pm

Thank you. I will order some. I have the special tool for fitting them as Allegro rear brakes use a similar system but longer steady pins, I know they are a nightmare to fit without the right tool.
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geoberni
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby geoberni » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:34 pm

No manual?
There's plenty of options around on line.
I don't know if I'm in breach of any forum rules by posting this, because I can't find them to check...... Anyone, please do point out where to find them......

Try this link https://www.manualslib.com/manual/10000 ... 273#manual
Basil the 1955 series II

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JOWETTJAVELIN
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby JOWETTJAVELIN » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:00 pm

Thank you.
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simmitc
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby simmitc » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:18 am

Have your brakes been modified? Standard Minor rear brakes have the beehive springs, but standard front brakes do not have any such spring. The Moss page https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-m ... minor.html shows the brakes without retaining springs, which is correct.

philthehill
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby philthehill » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:32 am

The Morris minor 7" and 8" front brakes do not have springs/clips/pins to hold the brake shoe against the back plate.
When correctly fitted the brake shoe springs hold the brake shoes hard against the back plate.

The rear brakes must be fitted with the beehive springs as if not fitted the outer (side) metal edge of the brake shoe can rub against the brake drum and in extreme cases wear through the drum. BMC fitted the beehive springs to eliminate any possibility of that happening.
Having the floating rear wheel cylinder does not help with shoe alignment.


JOWETTJAVELIN
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby JOWETTJAVELIN » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:42 am

Hm. I will go and check again then, I only got as far as doing the front o/s yesterday. Odd that the holes are there in the backplates for steady pins, yet they weren't fitted. I'm used to a better standard of engineering!
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philthehill
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby philthehill » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:24 am

If you have holes in the front brake mounting plates you may have Genuine Morris Minor brakes but using 1/4 ton back plates (See below) or the brake back plate became a common user item to save production costs.

As above - a photo of the front brake assy's posted on here would be good.

The factory wksp manual does not show and/or refer to any front brake shoe to backplate pins/clips or springs though it does show the brake shoe with a hole where a backplate to shoe spring could be fitted.

It must be remembered that one of the Morris Minor 7" front brake shoes can be used on the rear but the 8" shoes cannot. The Morris Minor brake 7" & 8" shoes are not only used on the Minor but on several other makes of vehicles of the same period which require different considerations which may require brake shoe steady pins/clips and springs.

There is nothing wrong with the standard of engineering as regards the Morris Minor front brakes.

So long as the shoes springs are fitted correctly there is absolutely no need for additional brake shoe steady requirements.

The Morris Quarter-ton van was fitted with brake shoe steady springs vehicle Com. (C) 141553 plus 141384 to 141500.

Part Nos

Pin...………...17H2115.

Spring...…….17H7969

Retainer...….17H7971

Of course the Morris Quarter ton may have had different braking and brake shoe requirements to the car.

Looking at the ESM web site the reconditioned back plates on offer do not have the hole for the brake shoe steady.
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/brake ... -h-p829425

ESM do list the spring and retainer/clip but not the pin.


taupe
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby taupe » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:32 pm

Shown in the parts list so if your backplate has holes I would ignore above and fit them....

as before:-

Page MK 5 (in the AKD 3541 parts list and clearly illustrated in facing page plate K3)

philthehill
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby philthehill » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:01 pm

The brake shoe steady may have been fitted to early 7" brakes but was not fitted to later 7" and 8" brakes.

If you look on 'e' bay there are photos of both 7" and 8" Minor brake back plates and they do not have the holes in the back plate for the Brake steady pin.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morris-Minor ... SwUWldSzih

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LH-NS-LEFT-H ... Sw2bhdJF0m

I am certain that you will find that BMC discontinued the brake shoe steady as it was found to be unnecessary on the front brakes.
I am also certain that is why it does not appear in the MOSS parts catalogue.

By all means fit the brake shoe steadies but it is not necessary to do so.

Phil


taupe
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby taupe » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:08 pm

I would go by the Morris parts list not the Moss catalogue :roll:

If your plates dont have holes in then no need to fit them....

But as yours do...then I would...

The part numbers Phil gives are the same in the parts list.....

Taupe

philthehill
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby philthehill » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:26 am

The part numbers and commission numbers which I have posted above were extracted from BMC factory parts list AKD 559 (hard copy).

Parts list AKD3541 is available on line:- http://www.spridgetguru.com/TchIndx17_files/AKD3541.pdf


JOWETTJAVELIN
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby JOWETTJAVELIN » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:31 pm

I will post pictures when I get a minute. I replaced all wheel cylinders with Lockheed and replaced all shoes. As it stands, there are no steady springs in the front brakes. The beehive springs on the rear brakes were missing so I fitted some from a Morris Oxford I had stripped a rear axle from. Despite adjusting the brakes, bleeding them and re-adjusting, the pedal is still going to almost the floor before the brakes operate. They can be 'pumped up' though for a closer pedal. I am going to check the master cylinder pushrod and adjust if necessary.
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby paul 300358 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:00 pm

Did you remember to fully slacken the handbrake cable adjuster nuts prior to adjusting the back brakes?

Trickydicky
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby Trickydicky » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:49 am

Don't adjust anything until you get a good firm pedal, start bleeding at the front offside and go around anti clockwise first, the problem is air in the system.
Once you start to get a firm pedal bleeding the brakes as per the manual will be sufficient.
Do you have a helper? I find pumping the pedal first and getting it firm then opening the bleed nipple and letting the pedal hit the floor then closing it is the best way after doing any major brake work.
Richard

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don58van
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby don58van » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:16 am

Hi JJ

When you find a solution to this, please let us all know.

I have the same problem. Once the pedal is pumped up, the braking performance is very good.

I have read all relevant posts on this site and others, going back decades. People who have had this problem have tried all sorts of recommended methods without success--then the threads fizzle out. This includes owners who have finished up replacing all the cylinders with new, without success. One even tried multiple master cylinders.

Slackening the handbrake adjusters as mentioned above seems to be something that some people overlook, but I have done this without improving the pedal.

I have used pedal pumping and vacuum bleeding.

I have tried some of the more 'innovative' recommended approaches, such as raising the rear of the car quite high, to encourage air to travel through the lines to the rear cylinders before bleeding.

BTW, I have other Minors where I have done all the brake work myself and the pedal is rock solid every application.

I'm sorry I can't give you the answer to this problem but I wish you success.

Don

philthehill
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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby philthehill » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:17 am

Don
There is no particular solution to the problems encountered with the bleeding of Morris Minor brakes.

No two cars are the same and the seriousness of the problem can vary.

You would think that the brakes of a Morris Minor 1000 would bleed easy but it is not always the case.

Having the master cylinder quite low down relative to the wheel cylinders does not help.

If real problems are encountered I have found that lifting one end as high as you can go and leaving over night encourages the air to rise to the highest point in the system and then bleed clean of air and then do the same on the other end - but I have to say it does not always work as there are many twists and turns in the pipe line that can trap air pockets.

What does work is attaching a pressure bleed system fitted to the master cylinder which pushes the air and fluid through the pipes but you do need lots of brake fluid doing it that way, the do it yourself types operating off a spare tyre may not be man enough for the job as you do need a good rush of brake fluid through the system to push out and clear any trapped air.

Sorry I cannot be more helpful but the Minor brake system can be a bit of a pig at times.

Phil


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Re: Front brake shoe steady springs.

Postby kennatt » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:16 am

Over the years I have had two minors with the same problem Cured each time by replacing the adjuster cams,I think that they do wear and after adjustment and on application on the brakes a few times the adjustment slips. I confirmed the fault by rechecking adjustment after a few days of deliberate hard braking,re setting and doing the same to find that they needed readjusting each time. For the cost it, worth doing the same may cure the fault . having to pump brakes is 90% of the time an adjustment problem,Air in the system shows as spongy brakes because air can be compressed .


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