Mystery pipe

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jagnut66
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Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

Hi,
I am going to fit the below carb to my car, I know where the vacuum connection is and the fuel but I have a third rubber pipe leftover from when I acquired it, a few years ago now.
It was bought attached to the manifold but removed from its previous engine, the pipe being cut by the seller (it is severed just outside the frame of the picture).
Hence why I didn't see where it went.
Does someone on here know where it is meant to go?
Also what is the designation of this carb? HS4?
Many thanks,
Mike.
DSCF3578(1).JPG
DSCF3578(1).JPG (1023.48 KiB) Viewed 2045 times
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
jagnut66
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

A little more research and I now believe it joins to the rocker cover breather pipe, so I just need a new rubber pipe then............
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
Murrayminor
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by Murrayminor »

Hi Mike

It certainly looks like a HS4, obviously you will have to measure the bore to obtain the size.

Regards

Dermot.
Proud owner of my first Morris Minor
IslipMinor
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by IslipMinor »

Mike,

It is not a connection to the rocker cover, but is a connection to either the oil separator on the front side tappet cover, or if using the 1275 timing cover, the oil separator on that.

The rocker cover is only ever connected to the air filter, to provide the source of filtered air into the crankcase. The tapping shown on the HS4 provides a low vacuum to draw the fumes out from the crankcase, to be replaced with clean filtered air via the rocker cover. The tapping also creates a low vacuum in the crankcase to keep oil and fumes inside the crankcase - very important for the rear crankshaft scroll 'seal'.

If the rocker cover is connected to the air filter, the oil filler cap must be the non-breathable/filter type.

If the rocker cover is the 'sealed' type, then the oil filler cap must be the later breathable/filter type to allow fresh air to enter the crankcase.

On the very late Minors, the PCV valve system was used as the first 'closed circuit' breathing system on the A-Series.
Richard


Mark Wilson
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by Mark Wilson »

Looks very much like an HS4, with the original waxstat. Can be converted to a mechanical choke with a kit from Burlen, or if you search on the mini and mgb forums you'll find how to convert it using a coin - 2p IIRC. I know you didn't ask this, so apologies if teaching you to suck eggs :wink:
jagnut66
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

Can be converted to a mechanical choke with a kit from Burlen
Thanks but on the other side, out of sight in this picture, it already has linkage for a manual choke (and the throttle cable).
Thinking back to when I bought it (several years ago now) I suspect this is ex-Morris Marina.
I have two manifolds like the one I took this off, so I'll post up a picture and see if that helps resolve this.
Plus if anyone wants the manifold, once you've seen what it looks like, let me know.

If the rocker cover is connected to the air filter, the oil filler cap must be the non-breathable/filter type.
Damm, I have a vented chrome cap fitted which I like. :(
The rocker cover has the breather pipe that would go to the air filter, however I am using an SU pancake filter, featured in a separate post, so was just going to fit a small filter on the end of this pipe.

It is not a connection to the rocker cover
I got that from a diagram online, though I'm not disputing what you say.
The question in my head at present is:
Do I need it or can I blank it off?
I don't have a crankcase breather on my engine and wasn't planning on going to the expense of sourcing one........

Thanks to all, for all the advice and help so far.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
IslipMinor
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by IslipMinor »

I got that from a diagram online
Mike,

Can you forward the diagram to me please?

In-line A-Series engines need all the help they can get to limit oil leaks, particularly from the crankshaft rear scroll. Running with no form of positive crankcase ventilation will almost certainly lead to oil leaks. Competition engines have multiple breathers and hoses leading to a catch tank.

The early engines, i.e. all 803 and 948, plus early 1098 used an 'open ventilation' system that needed the car to be moving to work. There is a 'draft tube' running down from the front tappet cover, with an angle cut across the end of the tube. As the car moves forwards, this is intended to create a small vacuum in the tube and then in the crankcase itself. The replacement air is supplied from the engine side of the air cleaner (filtered air) into the rocker cover and down into the crankcase. The oil filler cap is 'non-vented'.

The later 1098 engines used a 'closed circuit' ventilation system where the small vacuum is created by the PCV valve in the inlet manifold, which draws the fumes from the crankcase from the oil separator on the front tappet cover. This also creates a small vacuum in the crankcase and this time the replacement air comes through the rocker cover, being fed from the 'vented/filtered' oil filler cap. There is no connection to the air filter with a closed circuit system.

A further development (not Minor) was for the carburettor to have a port, such as the one on your HS4, which is connected directly to the oil separator. This has number of variations on Mini, Metro, 1275 Marina, Midget/Sprite etc., and generally it works very well, especially as it has no wearing parts, unlike the PCV valve.

For your engine you already have the SU port, so all that is required is to connect that to the later Minor front tappet cover oil separator from an engine with the PCV valve, fit a vented/filtered oil filler cap and you have a complete system. It also means that you are free to fit whatever type of air filter you would like, as it plays no part in a closed circuit crankcase ventilation system.
Richard


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deleted

Post by mobylette »

deleted
Last edited by mobylette on Wed May 20, 2020 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jagnut66
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

Well, this is the engine as it is so far:
948 engine ancilleries going on 1.JPG
948 engine ancilleries going on 1.JPG (938.06 KiB) Viewed 1933 times
948 engine ancilleries going on 2.JPG
948 engine ancilleries going on 2.JPG (958.6 KiB) Viewed 1933 times
There is a 'draft tube' running down from the front tappet cover
You can just see that in the second picture.
As I am not building this engine for competition and the ventilation you mention originally only consisted of the pipe down the side of the engine (noted above) and the rocker cover breather going to the air filter, do I actually need to do any more or will it do as is?
I can soon find a way of neatly capping the outlet on the side of the carb.
I do have a 1098 style air filter housing, that could go on if needs be, though I was hoping to run the pancake (I could always run a pipe from the rocker cover into the back of that with the addition of an outlet pipe from the back of it?).
At present I do have a vented cap but I can soon swap that for a non-vented type if you think I need to?

I've been looking for a tappet chest breather online whilst writing this, can I find one for sale?
Can I heck!!
I remember in the past, when I wasn't looking for one, I would be tripping over them on eBay, not now I'm looking though!........ :roll:


As an aside, below is the manifold that this carb came off, does anyone recognise it?
And does anyone want one? I have two of these and am thinking of letting both go.
DSCF3583.JPG
DSCF3583.JPG (1.33 MiB) Viewed 1933 times
DSCF3584.JPG
DSCF3584.JPG (1.32 MiB) Viewed 1933 times
Many thanks,
Mike.
Last edited by jagnut66 on Wed May 20, 2020 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
jagnut66
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

Can you forward the diagram to me please?
Hi Richard,
This is what I found online:
SU CARB showing CHOKE SETUP & BREATHER TUBE.jpg
SU CARB showing CHOKE SETUP & BREATHER TUBE.jpg (53.6 KiB) Viewed 1930 times
su carburettor diagram.png
su carburettor diagram.png (185.39 KiB) Viewed 1930 times
As you can see, the first one states that pipe should go to the rocker cover.
The second one I've found states that it should connect with the crankcase ventilator, which is what I believe you are all saying is the correct place for it to go to.
Therefore I take it it's the second one you will be more interested in. If you have any issues copying the above image let me know and I'll try and help.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
jagnut66
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

I've now found these (shows how much prices vary!):
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DCh ... hd6BAgBEGk
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DCh ... d6BQgBEJEB
http://www.ebay.co.uk/i/264709107508?chn=ps
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DCh ... d6BQgBEJcB
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/373056283072?r ... %3DDefault
So there are some for sale after all (looked under classic Mini this time.... doh!).......
In-line A-Series engines need all the help they can get to limit oil leaks, particularly from the crankshaft rear scroll. Running with no form of positive crankcase ventilation will almost certainly lead to oil leaks.
Do you feel I need one of the above Richard and will one of these do, connected up to the carb?
I have just been out and had a look and feel that I could 'slip one in', without having to remove the manifold, carb etc. all again (which is what I was trying to avoid :wink: ).

deleted
Why did you delete your post Mobylette?
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
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mobylette
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by mobylette »

Sorry, did not mean to gatecrash your thread, so started a separate one :)
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IslipMinor
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by IslipMinor »

Mike,

Yes if you could get one for £10/15 that would be well-worth doing. When you get it make sure that you flush out the oil separator thoroughly to clear out any muck and debris.
Richard


jagnut66
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

Yes if you could get one for £10/15 that would be well-worth doing. When you get it make sure that you flush out the oil separator thoroughly to clear out any muck and debris.
Thanks Richard,
Bought the second from last one for a tenner plus three quid postage.
One difference I did notice from the Moggy chest covers though is that the Mini ones look like they are inverted, whereas the Morris ones stick outwards. I don't suppose it matters, I was just thinking that being they were all from the same company / source, I wondered why they designed them differently.
Especially being they all liked to save money / cut costs whilst these were in production.
A styling dept. thing I suppose.

Sorry, did not mean to gatecrash your thread, so started a separate one
Allot of posts on here end up going off on a tangent..... :lol:
I wouldn't worry, we're all guilty of it on occasion.

Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
Mark Wilson
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by Mark Wilson »

jagnut66 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:23 pm
Can be converted to a mechanical choke with a kit from Burlen
Sorry, muddled wording from me. The waxstat doesn't replace the choke, it adjusts the jet to compensate for temperature variation - but has a widespread reputation for going wrong. The kit includes a modified choke linkage hence my lack of clarity!
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by pgp001 »

The Mini oil separator will not fit straight on to a Minor without modification, the can is at a totally different angle to the tappet chest cover.
I have cut the top off the one I intend to fit to my spare engine and the gunge that came out was horrible.
The intention is to make the top easily detachable for future cleaning, I am going to forget putting wire wool back in there as it had degraded very badly.
If you go to the supermarket you can buy some pan scourers made from what looks like aluminium swarf in a bundle, two of those fit perfectly in the canister and will do the job.

Just looking at your set up, I am not sure the separator will clear your exhaust manifoild as it is, but if you have welding gear it should be easy to modify the canister to get around that problem.

I have had one of these on my Traveller for a year or so now, and all the little puddles of oil from the scroll seal have stopped since fitting it.

Phil
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by philthehill »

As you have the removable fuel pump aperture cover why not do as I did and fit a new breather/oil separator to the aperture.

This is the oil separator I used:- http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... o%20search

Easy to do and you can have a new oil separator to boot. It will perform the same function as an oil separator fitted to the front tappet cover in that it will vent the crankcase.

Second picture is of the adapter plate and the first is the oil separator fitted and connected up:-
100_2534.JPG
100_2534.JPG (1.1 MiB) Viewed 1853 times
100_2530.JPG
100_2530.JPG (1.57 MiB) Viewed 1853 times

jagnut66
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by jagnut66 »

This is the oil separator I used:
That looks like a neat option Phil.
Your link takes me to the separator but is that a kit or do I have to buy it all individually?
Many thanks,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
MattsGPOvan
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by MattsGPOvan »

Has any one in the World got a picture of a Standard BMC closed circuit 10 V Engine.
Last edited by MattsGPOvan on Thu May 21, 2020 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
philthehill
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Re: Mystery pipe

Post by philthehill »

It is not a kit. You have to source the parts individually. The only ready made item is the oil separator.

I purchased a piece of flat alloy for the adapter, plus two countersunk Allen headed screws. I used the existing studs/washers/nuts and that is it and I took about 2 hrs to get the thing made up and fitted.

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