Rebuilt 1275-running a bit "out of sorts"

[ndevans]

Thanks. I've now got a copper and a composite gasket on order, and some flanged nuts (I already have A+ studs). I'll put the composite gasket on and carry the copper one as a spare.

cheers N

[philthehill]

Are you sure that they are 'A' Plus studs. The studs fitted to your block do not appear to have the normal 'A' plus identifications which are a dimple in the top face of the stud, a tapered top or a 'Y' stamped on the top face of the stud.

[ndevans]

Are you sure that they are 'A' Plus studs. The studs fitted to your block do not appear to have the normal 'A' plus identifications which are a dimple in the top face of the stud, a tapered top or a 'Y' stamped on the top face of the stud.

Hmm. I'm not so sure now. I thought they were, but I can't find the paperwork that came with them. The original studs have tapered ends, but are not marked with a Y on the top. I replaced them with new last year, after the rebore-these are flat ends, no Y in the top, just a small circular rise. For some reason I didn't use two of the new ones, so you can probably see one with a tapered head already on-that's one of the originals. The engine block is a Marina 1275 block, not A+ though. I bought it 2nd hand-for all I know, the studs were changed to A+ by a previous owner.
Would I be right in thinking that the big valve head, HC pistons & + 0.040" rebore all together results in increased pressures inside the cylinder, which requires extra head torque? If so, maybe that explains the small weeps of oil from the head-block join?
I think I torqued to 45lb-ft, but not sure. I'll post some phots later.

[philthehill]

The 1275cc Marina and 1275cc Ital both had what is now generically termed 'A' Plus studs- that is the tapered top, the dimple and the stamped 'Y'.
All the long studs have the taper top, the short studs have either the dimple or stamped 'Y'.
The taper of the long studs is distinctive as is the dimple and stamped 'Y'.
I cannot see any of the studs in your photos above having the taper, dimple or stamped 'Y'. They all look to be standard 803cc/948cc/1098cc minor items.
The adoption of the 'A' Plus studs and increased torque was because of the extra forces acting on the gasket and studs.
You should fit the 'A' Plus studs with the flanged nuts when running either a 1275cc Marina or 1275cc Ital engine and set the torque to the higher setting. Other 'A' Series engines can gain benefit from fitting the 'A' Plus studs/flanged nuts.
Having the higher compression pistons and resized bores will add to the possibility of head gasket failure.

[Bowie69]

Is the block flat at the failure point?

[ndevans]

The picture below shows the studs that I have spare.
The 7 on the left are the "originals"-by that I mean they came with the engine when I bought it. The nuts on the end are not what came with the engine, they are what I used to get them off the block.
The 2 on the right are new ones that I bought last year, and for some reason did not use. It's not clear from the photo, but both ends on these two are flat, not tapered. All the studs on the engine currently are the same as the two on the right, except for the two "originals" that I retained-probably because I was unable to get them out of the block.

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[les]

You could use Stilsons to remove the remaining two studs, better to have all new studs rather that all but two !

[philthehill]

The seven on the left are the generic 'A' Plus type and have the taper top.
I would agree with Les that all studs should be the same and new.
Take care with trying to remove those seized studs as they could snap off at block level if too much force is used.

[ndevans]

I guess these would be somewhat overkill?

http://www.retrominisltd.co.uk/index.ph ... ts_id=1229

They also do Cooper S head bolts-would they be suitable?

[philthehill]

Whilst not cheap - much cheaper than a set of ARP head studs/nuts/washers.

Personally I would use the existing 'A' Plus studs you have and purchase any additional studs required plus the flanged nuts.
The easy way out would be to purchase the set of 'A' Plus studs and nuts in the link I posted above and combine the best to make up one full set.
With the additional studs you could convert your 9 stud head to 11 stud.

The 11 fastener heads comprise 10 studs and one bolt and to answer your question as to whether the Cooper S bolts are suitable - they are not unless you want to use the bolt for the front fastening.
The front fastening is a 5/16" bolt and torqued to 25lb ft. The bolt screws into the block above the water pump where the top of the block is quite thin - hence the smaller dia bolt and reduced torque.
Many of the 5/16" bolts are converted to 3/8" studs which is ok but you have to remember that the 3/8" stud has to be still set to 25lb ft.
My own engine has been converted so.
A 9 stud head can be easily converted to 11 stud or 10 stud and 1 bolt as the 940 head has two internal casting pillars which can be drilled through to accommodate the two extra fastenings.

[ndevans]

I've ordered that set of used studs off Ebay. Where do the extra 2 studs go-is it where the holes are at the front & rear of the head gasket? If so, then I would need the block drilling & tapping-not a job I can do.
cheers N

[philthehill]

The two extra studs or stud and one bolt are fitted at the front and rear of the head. The 1275cc head gasket can be used to determine their positions. The block will need to be drilled and taped- for the studs 3/8" UNC and for the bolt 5/16" UNC.
As regards the extra two fastenings I would wait until the next time you have the block stripped and then drill and tap the top of the block.
Having the 'A' Plus studs and the flanged nuts torqued to 50lb ft will be a great improvement.
Lightly countersink the 3/8" UNC stud holes in the top of the block to ensure that any pull up of the block top surface around the stud does not effect the gasket seating.
If you do want to fit the two extra fastenings drill the head first and then loosely fit the head to the block and use the head as a drilling guide so as to ensure that the stud and block holes have matched centres.

[ndevans]

Thanks for the information Phil. Drilling the head and block are not jobs for me-maybe next time the block is it and stripped, hopefully not for a long time!

I drained the water using the plug on the exhaust side of the engine (I've now fitted a tap). Should that drain the block completely, and the head? Because when I separated the head from the block, there was a lot of water still in it.
Cheers N

[philthehill]

The drain plug/tap is below the top of the block so the majority of coolant should be drained off. There will always be some coolant caught in casting pockets of the head and block so that when you take the head off you will always get some coolant spill. Give the drain plug/tap hole a good rake through. Silt builds up at the rear of the block and can cause retention of coolant to occur even when the drain plug/tap is removed.

[ndevans]

Ok, the car is back from welding, the fuel tank is awaiting a new pipe (separate thread), and I am about to put the head back on, with a new gasket and a set of the high torque studs.
Before I put the head back on, there is a bit of water down in the camshaft gallery. When I lower a pushrod into the block, it comes out with just oil in some, but with coolant in others. This is from where I spilt it when I took the head off, and it wasn't properly drained.
Do I just refit the head and get on with it, or do I try to get the water out? If so, how? And how best to check there's no more water in there?

Cheers N

[philthehill]

If you have a antifreeze tester - fit a longer piece of pipe to the bottom of the tester, pass the pipe down the push rod hole in the block and suck the coolant out. The more coolant you can remove the better.

[ndevans]

I don't have an antifreeze tester, but I do have a battery hydrometer. The pipe is long enough to reach just about as far as the push rod goes down, and this is how much water (and oil) I managed to extract from all 8 push rod holes. This is about 30ml.
I've also drained the oil from the engine tonight. Not easy to tell, as I was under the car trying to prevent an oil slick happening, but it looked as though it was oil that ran out at the start-if there was a lot of water in there, I'd expect it would have been sitting at the bottom of the sump, as oil floats. Haven't checked the container yet, it's still under the car.
So, if there are still some small pockets of water in the sump and the camshaft gallery, will this do any harm if I reassemble, fill with (cheap) oil, and start it? I don't want to use quality oil if it's going to be contaminated, and I'll have to discard it.

Cheers N

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[philthehill]

Well done.
Fill with cheap oil or flushing oil - run and then drain. Re-fill with top grade oil and enjoy.

Do not forget to retorque the head to 50lbf ft after the first heat cycle.

[ndevans]

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[ndevans]

Duplicate post deleted.