Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

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Napoleon Boot
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Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Hi all,

As I've probably mentioned before, when I got my car it had been fitted with a bit of a Heath Robinson breather arrangement, intended to stop oil leaking out the rear scroll 'seal', but I've never managed to get it working properly. Instead of oil leaks from the back, I'm getting leaks into the engine bay, and I think it's also affecting the engine performance which is gutless, especially on any kind of incline, or when pulling away from a standstill.
Here's a picture of what's there at the moment:
engine 2 copy.jpg
engine 2 copy.jpg (1.54 MiB) Viewed 2637 times
There's no breather on the rocker box, just one on the tappet chest cover. A copper T junction has been fitted to it, with (in red) a pipe heading up to the inlet manifold, with an inline valve to adjust the negative pressure in the engine. The other branch leads down to an oil trap. The other pipe you can see (in blue) leads from the intake manifold to the brake servo.

I'd like to return to the original factory set up. The car has a late 1098 engine, vented oil filler cap and HS2 carb. Looking at this handy guide on Charles Ware's site I'm certain I need a 'type 2 breather chimney':

https://www.morrisminor.org.uk/userfile ... nd-two.pdf

However I've looked and can't find this part on either CW or ESM. Is there a more common name for the part that I should be searching for? I thought I might find what I need on a Mini, Triumph or MG website if the part is common to other BMC/BL cars of the era.

Secondly - and this is related, I promise. My car is fitted with a large bore exhaust (1.5") and sounds very noisy as a result. I don't want to replace it with a small bore exhaust as a) the exhaust is in good nick and b) I don't want to restrict the engine any further. Could I add an extra straight-through silencer box instead - would this make much difference?

Best wishes,
Seb
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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pgp001
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by pgp001 »

Does your carb have a small brass inlet stub on the far side of it looking at your photo.
That is the normal connection point for the later breather canister.

You are looking for one of these.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-MINOR ... 7675.l2557

Note the ones for a Mini look very similar but are not the same and do not fit correctly without cutting and welding.

Phil
Napoleon Boot
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Hi Phil,

I thought I did, but looking at these photos, it looks like it's connected to the vacuum advance for the distributor! I'll have to go and have a proper look in minute. There's a home-made manifold between the carb and the intake manifold which the brake servo and breather pipe attach to.

Seb
carb2.jpg
carb2.jpg (694.08 KiB) Viewed 2582 times
carb 1.jpg
carb 1.jpg (747.2 KiB) Viewed 2582 times
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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pgp001
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by pgp001 »

It looks like some mad professor has been playing around with your carburettor, there is not much left that is standard.
From your photo it looks like you do have the side port I was talking about, but it has a push in fitting type elbow attached to it and then blanked off (the black elbow with the blue push-in ring)

Not sure what the white thing with the long slotted lever and cable is next to it on the left, or the other stuff attached to a bracket behind the air filter either. You seem to have three control cables, mine only has the throttle and the choke, do you know what the third one is supposed to be doing ?.
The brass tap with a screwdriver slot, is part of a household water system and has no place on a car.

On mine the inlet manifold has been tapped to connect the servo, the vacuum advance connection is the same as yours, I have a plastic spacer between the carb and the manifold which insulates it from the heat and gives me a tapping point for my vacuum gauge. Finally my oil trap for the breather is connected to the angled brass port on the bulkhead side of the carb.

Personally I would be getting rid of all the "Heath Robinson" bits and making it as simple as possible.

Phil
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

pgp001 wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:19 pm It looks like some mad professor has been playing around with your carburettor, there is not much left that is standard.
From your photo it looks like you do have the side port I was talking about, but it has a push in fitting type elbow attached to it and then blanked off (the black elbow with the blue push-in ring)
Ah ha - I wondered what was going on there!
pgp001 wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:19 pm Not sure what the white thing with the long slotted lever and cable is next to it on the left, or the other stuff attached to a bracket behind the air filter either. You seem to have three control cables, mine only has the throttle and the choke, do you know what the third one is supposed to be doing ?.
The white nylon thing is a pulley attached to the throttle lever on the carb; the long slotted lever is then attached to the throttle cable (which has the funny red thing on the end of the outer sleeve) and the throttle return spring is attached to a bracket screwed to the air filter housing, presumably because the carb has been moved outwards several inches due to the added manifolds.

The cable at the top with the rusty outer is the choke cable. The third cable is - er - pass! I'm going to have a look when the rain stops.
pgp001 wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:19 pm The brass tap with a screwdriver slot, is part of a household water system and has no place on a car.
Yep - that's how the suction is adjusted - I need to use a manometer down one of the spark plug holes to set it properly - I think it's too far open at the moment as it's sucking oil out of the engine. I think it's restricting the engine power as well. The hose attached to it split the other day and the engine lost loads of power until I stopped and replaced it, which backs up my theory.
pgp001 wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:19 pm On mine the inlet manifold has been tapped to connect the servo, the vacuum advance connection is the same as yours, I have a plastic spacer between the carb and the manifold which insulates it from the heat and gives me a tapping point for my vacuum gauge. Finally my oil trap for the breather is connected to the angled brass port on the bulkhead side of the carb.
Thanks for the description - it's helpful for me to have an idea of what should be going on.
pgp001 wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:19 pm Personally I would be getting rid of all the "Heath Robinson" bits and making it as simple as possible.
That's what I'd like to do - there are enough things to take care of without extra bespoke additions!

Seb
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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Steve Phillips
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Steve Phillips »

From memory the long slotted lever and white nylon piece are for the lockdown function of your auto box.

Steve
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Napoleon Boot
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Steve Phillips wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:27 pm From memory the long slotted lever and white nylon piece are for the lockdown function of your auto box.

Steve
Ah!
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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Steve Phillips
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Steve Phillips »

Doh lockdown should read kickdown, gotta love auto correct.....
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jagnut66
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by jagnut66 »

Yes, I think we've all had enough of lockdowns......... :lol:
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
Napoleon Boot
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Steve Phillips wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:56 pm Doh lockdown should read kickdown, gotta love auto correct.....
:lol:

Yep, I had a look and it heads off towards the gearbox so must be the kickdown. The throttle cable is connected to the same nylon pulley but further down. And Phil, you were right, the odd blue elbow is a bung stopping up the breather port on the carb.

Seb
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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jagnut66
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by jagnut66 »

Time to get rid of 'spaghetti junction' methinks and simplify things once more.
Perhaps swapping that non-vented rocker cover for one that is vented and reconnecting it to the air filter casing (as per original) would help as well?
A few options, if you wish, the first three just require a rub down and a lick of paint, the last comes with other bits and pieces....


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morris-Minor ... SwO7dfQn8z
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DCh ... hd6BAgBEDE
https://www.morrisminor.org.uk/parts/7- ... cover-used
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Job-Lot-Morr ... SwgJpfGbNv

Also this earlier inlet / exhaust manifold wants a good clean up but comes with an original spacer and to the right of the inlet section of the manifold is a blanked port, that could be drilled and tapped for a connector that would (IMO) provide a better vacuum connection for your brake servo, dispensing with the need for one of your extra spacing blocks, thus moving the carb back nearer to its standard distance from the inlet manifold.
Replacement bolts and gaskets are still available for the separate inlet section on this manifold, links below the manifold itself.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-car- ... SwcLBfC4lr
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/engin ... 20-p830406
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/fuel- ... 06-p830651

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Power-Brake- ... SwA4dWJxDf

Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
Napoleon Boot
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Thanks for the links Mike. I think I'd like to stick with the non-vented rocker cover though - mine's one of the last Travellers so would have had a non vented cover as built.

Best wishes,
Seb
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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pgp001
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by pgp001 »

Once you get the breather canister fitted you will not need a pipe between the rocker cover and the back of the filter, so keep the rocker cover you already have.
If you contact " the_mini_man" on ebay he sometimes has the correct tappet breather canister for a minor, that is where I got mine.

Phil
jagnut66
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by jagnut66 »

Plenty of Mini ones out there but I couldn't find a Minor one, seem to be like rocking horse poo..............
What about club spares, might be worth emailing Bryan Gostling, his email address is in Minor Matters, or he is 'sparesman' on here.
I take it you mean to connect it like the image below.

Morris Minor tappet chest breather.jpg
Morris Minor tappet chest breather.jpg (57.39 KiB) Viewed 2435 times
A thought but moving the carb back to its original spacing distance may improve the performance a bit as well.
Perhaps others can comment on this thought, one way or the other?
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
pgp001
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by pgp001 »

Mike

The pipe from the breather canister does not go to the filter as shown in the photo, it goes onto the brass stub pipe in the far side of the carb body. A standard Minor carb may not have the brass pipe fitted, I used a Mini carb body on my Traveller when I did this conversion.
It is however possible to drill and fit your own connection pipe if needed.

There is nothing connected to the back of the filter at all.

Phil
Napoleon Boot
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Thanks both, and thanks Phil for the warning about the Mini tappet chest breathers being a different size to the Minor ones. They do seem hard to find, perhaps that's why the PO opted for the solution that I currently have.

I'll keep trying to find one, will try asking Bryan as well.

Best wishes,
Seb
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by jagnut66 »

The pipe from the breather canister does not go to the filter as shown in the photo
Fair enough Phil, I will add though that it is not a picture of my engine, simply one I found online that I thought illustrated what was being suggested above on here.
Am I right in my thought that moving his carb back nearer to the manifold and its original position would improve his cars performance (or not)?
I will keep an eye out for a tappet chest breather for you Seb, if I spot one before you I'll post you a link on here.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
Napoleon Boot
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

jagnut66 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:27 am I will keep an eye out for a tappet chest breather for you Seb, if I spot one before you I'll post you a link on here.
That's really kind of you Mike, thank you!

Best wishes,
Seb
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by kevin s »

I'm not surprised you are having problems, it looks like the only crankcase ventilation is through the domestic plumbing valve and directly into the inlet manifold.

The standard set up passes crankcase gases upstream of the carb and it gets pulled into the engine with the air flow, unless the air cleaner is blocked it's basically relying on pressure in the crankcase to push the gases out and also potentially some oil past the crank scroll.

The idea of a positive crankcase ventilation system (PCV) is to use the manifold vacuum to pull the gasses through, to do this you need a PCV valve, this basically controls the flow of gases, at idle it only allows a small amount of gas to pass, and under load it opens up to allow far more to pass, this is done based on manifold vacuum, (high vacuum at idle low under load). With your fixed control of you have it closed enough to not affect idle you will not have enough flow under load and potentially significantly pressurise the crankcase causing oil leaks.

As said above you can revert to the standard set up or you could add a PCV in place of the brass valve.
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Re: Breather set up for a late 1098 engine

Post by Napoleon Boot »

Thanks Kevin,

That's my understanding of the setup as well; there is a vent in the oil filler cap allowing air in (as standard for this late 1098 engine) and suction from the breather on the tappet chest cover. As I have this inline domestic plumbing valve instead of a PCV valve, it can only be set correctly for either idling or when the engine is under load (or as I suspect, currently neither!). This is probably the root of my high idle speed - I have unscrewed the throttle stop screw until it fell off, without getting below about 800 revs - and also the lack of power when pulling away or encountering hills.

The oil leak I'm getting at the moment is from the breather/oil trap arrangement at the front, not from the scroll seal. It looks like too much suction is causing oil to be pulled through into the oil trap, which is filling up and where it is leaking through the joints in the copper pipe. Rather than muck about, I'd rather get rid of it and fit a PCV valve in its place.

Is it as simple (ha!) as looking for a PCV valve which is intended for a similar 1.1 litre engine, for instance this one which was used on Midgets / Sprites with 1098 engines: https://mossmotors.com/p-c-v-valve-1?assoc=19040

Best wishes,
Seb
1971 Adderley Park Traveller, "Peggy". 1098 engine, automatic transmission
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