Car not starting

[Alice Minor]

A wooden clothes peg used to be the common fix to stop the choke turning it's self off, pull the choke out and put it on the shaft behind the knob, just pull it off when you no longer need the choke.

Great advice btw, used a plastic spring loaded peg as I don’t use wooden pegs , only thing is once your into the peg the peg has to come out and there’s nothing stopping it slipping back in but decent idea

Lucy has been great since putting the new battery on until this morning, I did my usual routine, neutral, ignition on and half choke, when the fuel pump stops ticking I turn the key , she usually starts 2nd try , after 4 try’s I paused and turned off the ignition and pushed the choke in and sat for 5 minutes and rang a friend at work , was nearly 10 minutes later after coming off the phone I repeated the procedure till after 4 try’s she hadn’t started or even tried so tried again but this time kept the key turned a lot longer , I’d say about 10 seconds but she didn’t start so left her and rang a taxi , as far as I’m aware there’s nothing wrong , any ideas ?? ( totally peed off with this car now )

[simmitc]

The above followed on from a thread about flooding and we ascertained that the car needed a new battery. As that thread was already 4 pages long and we resolved that issue, and Alice has discovered a new problem, I have split this to a new topic.

[myoldjalopy]

Hmmm.......well, I can understand you are getting fed up with Lucy but it really has to be something simple if she was starting well before and now won't. Many of the suggestions in the old thread about sparks and fuel need another look, I think. Even if the car was serviced recently by a garage, who knows what they did and didn't do, exactly. If only there was someone experienced in these old cars nearby, he/she could give give the old girl an examination. Whereabouts are you Alice?

[gtt1951]

Hello Alice, it could be anything, but a quick way to narrow things down is to get a spray can of Bradex Easy Start (available from good Motor Factors).
Do what you normally do, prior to turning the key.
Put the key on the first position, so the ignition circuit is "live".
Lift the bonnet and squirt some Easy Start into the air intake on the air filter - use the button on the starter solenoid, if there is one, as you can then then attempt starting immediately after squirting (otherwise you will have to move quickly to get back in the car and turn the key to "start").
If the engine fires up then your ignition electrics are OK - it may not run for long if there is insufficient fuel in the carburettor.
If the engine does not fire up, then you need to take the distributor cap off and do checks on the contact breaker and/or the capacitor.

Do the Easy Start test first, and we can go from there.
As I don't use any of my Moggies on a daily basis, I always start them with Easy Start as it saves engine cranking time and battery wear.

Regards,
George.
P.S. Now known as Holt's Bradex Easy Start and is also available from Halfords.

[geoberni]

As I don't use any of my Moggies on a daily basis, I always start them with Easy Start as it saves engine cranking time and battery wear.

Really?
Basil hasn't been anywhere this year, apart from in and out of the garage occasionally.
As a generalisation, he always starts within a few seconds, with no or little choke in the Summer and a bit more in the colder months.

'Easy Start' is just a version of the Ether based Cold Start Spray that has been around for decades, very useful if you're in Scandinavia or the Scottish Highlands, for example, but I wouldn't see a use for is all the time in temperate climes. It's main chemical ingredients are
Diethyl Ether
Naphtha
Isopropyl Ether
Acetone
and I wouldn't mind betting there's some Propane included as the propellant too.
You're spraying an explosive cocktail into the engine, useful at -20C, but using it all the time will mask any starting problems, thus potentially building up snags for later such as low compression from engine wear.

Incidentally, in Australia they have long had a brand called 'Start Yer B*stard'.
I can't link direct to it because the Forum Swear Filter even works in the web address, but you'll find it listed here:
www.nulon.com.au/products/aerosols

[simmitc]

You say that the fuel pump ticks and then stops, so it is likely that fuel is getting to the carb. That, plus the fact that the car suddenly won't start. suggests that an ignition problem is more likely.

Make sure that there is no petrol (or Easy Start) around, remove the centre HT lead from the dizzy, leaving the other end connected to the coil. Wedge the loose end about 1/4 inch from the block or other good earth point. Get an assistant to turn the key. With the ignition on and engine spinning, is there a good bright spark between the end of the lead and the earth point? Please report back with a yes or no.

[Alice Minor]

Hmmm.......well, I can understand you are getting fed up with Lucy but it really has to be something simple if she was starting well before and now won't. Many of the suggestions in the old thread about sparks and fuel need another look, I think. Even if the car was serviced recently by a garage, who knows what they did and didn't do, exactly. If only there was someone experienced in these old cars nearby, he/she could give give the old girl an examination. Whereabouts are you Alice?

Hi there

I live in Newcastle upon Tyne , I’m just glad I have a garage to put Lucy in, gonna ask about at work with some of the older folks , you never know x

[Alice Minor]

As I don't use any of my Moggies on a daily basis, I always start them with Easy Start as it saves engine cranking time and battery wear.

Really?
Basil hasn't been anywhere this year, apart from in and out of the garage occasionally.
As a generalisation, he always starts within a few seconds, with no or little choke in the Summer and a bit more in the colder months.

'Easy Start' is just a version of the Ether based Cold Start Spray that has been around for decades, very useful if you're in Scandinavia or the Scottish Highlands, for example, but I wouldn't see a use for is all the time in temperate climes. It's main chemical ingredients are
Diethyl Ether
Naphtha
Isopropyl Ether
Acetone
and I wouldn't mind betting there's some Propane included as the propellant too.
You're spraying an explosive cocktail into the engine, useful at -20C, but using it all the time will mask any starting problems, thus potentially building up snags for later such as low compression from engine wear.

Incidentally, in Australia they have long had a brand called 'Start Yer B*stard'.
I can't link direct to it because the Forum Swear Filter even works in the web address, but you'll find it listed here:
www.nulon.com.au/products/aerosols

Hi there again

Had a chuckle at your “ start ya b*stard “ , your right, easy start isn’t something I want to become reliant on , Lucy has been absolutely fine , no qualms at all , even not starting 1st try doesn’t bother me, with winter just round the corner it’s all about reliability, I did have another go at starting Lucy yesterday, same set up ,neutral,ignition on,half choke and turned the key , she turned over but didn’t try but had a whine at the end, tried a 2nd and 3rd try but she only turned over , I was so tempted to give her a bit gas as I had the key turned but thought better of it incase I flooded her , another natural instinct was to pull the choke fully out but once again I thought about flooding her , anyway she started every day last week on half choke so should have on Monday, looks like I might try easy start and hope she starts , thx anyway hun x

[Alice Minor]

You say that the fuel pump ticks and then stops, so it is likely that fuel is getting to the carb. That, plus the fact that the car suddenly won't start. suggests that an ignition problem is more likely.

Make sure that there is no petrol (or Easy Start) around, remove the centre HT lead from the dizzy, leaving the other end connected to the coil. Wedge the loose end about 1/4 inch from the block or other good earth point. Get an assistant to turn the key. With the ignition on and engine spinning, is there a good bright spark between the end of the lead and the earth point? Please report back with a yes or no.

Hi Simon

I did what you said with the lead and caught my neighbour Steph just getting home from work, she came over and she got in, I asked her to turn the key , she did and a nice bright blue spark , I shouted stop , silence in the garage, very noisy when the bonnet is up and I’m at the front and somebody else is turning the key , I plugged the lead back in and Steph shouted “ you having trouble starting her “ I said yes ,said after getting home Friday and not using her over the weekend she wouldn’t start Monday morning, turns out her mum had an old mini yrs ago and Steph learned to drive in it , she said the hardest part was learning how to cold start her for a driving lesson, I asked her to have a try at starting Lucy for me , her set up was exactly the same as me only she gave her full choke , she turned the key and after a few seconds she spluttered, Steph said “ nearly “ , she tried again but I noticed she was giving the accelerator a slight press , I said careful you don’t flood her, at that point she started but conked out immediately, she tried again but only spluttered,she said “ I wonder if that’s to much choke “ and pushed it in slightly, I said to her I’ve only been using half choke , anyway another 2 try’s and the battery began to die , that was Monday Tuesday and Wednesday trying her without recharging the battery, Steph is coming over today to have another try on a recharged battery, any added tips on what I’ve included ?

Thx

Alice X

[oliver90owner]

My tip is not to let the battery get discharged too much and most certainly don’t leave it like that. Lead acid batteries soon fail, if not kept fully charged, by the plates becoming ‘sulphated’.

Starting these older engines can be a bit of an ‘art’. Assuming one set of conditions fits all is not likely the best strategy. I would guess that the engine likely needs a proper service and tune up.

[simmitc]

Oliver's tip is good: keep the battery charged.

The bright spark that you have seen shows that the first part of the ignition is good. That moves any potential trouble downstream to the distributor. It might be that you have moisture in the dizzy cap, or that the rotor arm is playing up. The almost starting could be dizzy cap or fuel/choke.

It sounds as if your neighbour is just what you need - the Mini engine and the Minor engine are practically the same in respect of fault finding. As other have said, it is also worth doing a proper service on the car - condition of points, points gap, timing, plug condition and gap, carb clean and adjust, air filter etc.

[gtt1951]

I must elaborate on my use of Easy Start.
All my moggies are stored outside in all weathers. All of them have solar trickle chargers attached.
All but the oldest car (still being worked on) have electronic ignition.
The oldest car, the low-light, only recently had its charging circuit restored to working order (needed a refurbished by me dynamo and a repro side-valve Voltage/Current regulator - as the original and eBay ones didn't work properly).
I started using Easy Start on this car, due to it not being able to charge its own battery, thus minimising the amount of cranking time to get this old engine started.
I then switched to using it on the other side-valve and the 4-door saloon (the Traveller with the replacement 1098 engine fares a lot better).
If the fuel has been in the tank for a long time it starts going "stale" and loses its "potency" - Easy Start as least gets the car fired up.
Worst case was about a year ago, when I had to pump out all the remaining fuel from the High-light and replace with fresh petrol as it even didn't smell of petrol any-more - smelt of emulsified paint!
I keep very little fuel in the car tanks now. The advent of E10 petrol is going to be very bad news for my cars.

Note for Alice - if you have a strong spark on the HT lead, then the next steps are to check the spark at the contact breaker points, clean and adjust them as necessary, but you can also check the quality of the spark at the spark plug by using a spare plug connected to, say lead No.1, and wedged against the engine - there should be a good blue spark across the gap. Also, as Simmitc has stated, check the plug gaps.
Regards,
Easy Start George.

[myoldjalopy]

Hmmm.......well, I can understand you are getting fed up with Lucy but it really has to be something simple if she was starting well before and now won't. Many of the suggestions in the old thread about sparks and fuel need another look, I think. Even if the car was serviced recently by a garage, who knows what they did and didn't do, exactly. If only there was someone experienced in these old cars nearby, he/she could give give the old girl an examination. Whereabouts are you Alice?

Hi there

I live in Newcastle upon Tyne , I’m just glad I have a garage to put Lucy in, gonna ask about at work with some of the older folks , you never know x

Oh...well, you are about 450 miles from me so I can't really pop over to take a look! Maybe there is someone else in that area?
If you have a good spark at the HT lead from the coil, it won't be the points. But do check the dizzy cap for moisture and for any cracks or other dubious signs in the plastic, that the four metal segments are clean and not eroded away, that the carbon bush in the centre is in good condition and the spring underneath it is working properly. Check all the HT lead connections in the cap are clean/good. Then check the condition of the plugs and their gaps. It could, as 'simmitc' suggested be the rotor arm failing (this has happened to me at least three times, until I got my ignition parts from the Distributor Doctor). I think these are the most likely suspects before looking at things like carb, timing, air filter, given that the car has been running well until recently.

[ManyMinors]

I quite agree - It is most likely a slow or partial failure of an electrical item. As I said on Alice's other thread: If a Minor won't start easily there is something wrong with it and it needs looking at The components sold by "The Distributor Doctor" are indeed good quality and well worth the extra expense.
I am rather surprised that a new battery has gone flat already after a few attempts at starting

[geoberni]

I am rather surprised that a new battery has gone flat already after a few attempts at starting

The trouble is we don't know the overall state of play with the electrics. I haven't looked to see it it's been mentioned previously in other topics, but I'm assuming a Dynamo is fitted.
How well the battery's getting charged; factors like the length of the commute, are headlights used on every trip, is the heater blower running al the time etc.
One of the reasons I changed to LED headlights was the slight discharge of the battery whenever using the halogen lights that were fitted by the previous owner.

[Alice Minor]

My tip is not to let the battery get discharged too much and most certainly don’t leave it like that. Lead acid batteries soon fail, if not kept fully charged, by the plates becoming ‘sulphated’.

Starting these older engines can be a bit of an ‘art’. Assuming one set of conditions fits all is not likely the best strategy. I would guess that the engine likely needs a proper service and tune up.

Hi

It’s all recently been done , plugs, points , rotor arm , oil and filters etc etc etc , basically everything was done not that long ago and I don’t do a lot of Milage in her anyway, certainly not motorway driving , not fast enough for me

Thx

Alice x

[ManyMinors]

I know you said previously that the car had recently been serviced, but that is a rather general term. Most garages will simply fit cheap new parts supplied by a local motor factor and the quality of such parts is often rather poor - as many of us can testify.
If your car is not starting easily, there is something wrong with it. It is very likely just a simple fix - and probably ignition related. Have you thought of contacting the garage who serviced it if you don't know a competent Minor enthusiast locally? Perhaps they could look it over and/or keep it there for a few days and try starting it each morning themselves?
Personally, I would contact the "Distributor Doctor" (Google him) and order a set of contacts, a condenser and rotor arm. Possibly a distributor car and HT leads as well and get them fitted. The cost is relatively small and particularly at this time of year, you need the car to be reliable. Currently it is causing you grief and spoiling your enjoyment of it. A Morris Minor should only require a very basic and simple level of maintenance to provide reliable all year round motoring

[geoberni]

Alice
I wonder it it could be a bit of damp in/on the Ign system allowing your 'Spark' to track away.

It's not very easy to buy these days as demand has dropped off a cliff with modern cars rarely having such problems, but years ago 'Damp Start' as opposed to 'Easy Start' was a very common thing to have in the boot.
There used to be many manufacturers, but the only ones that still seems to be available now are Carplan and Carlube.
Search online for 'Car Ignition Sealer'
You'll probably return lots of results for other 'car sprays' including the likes of 'Easy Start', 'WD40' etc, steer clear of them and make sure is a 'sealer' spray.

Carplan.JPG (39.36 KiB) Viewed 2641 times

Carlube.jpg (26.02 KiB) Viewed 2641 times

It's not a permanent fix but it should help identify if you've got a problem with the Dissy Cap or the HT leads.
Either that or change the Dissy Cap, and if that doesn't fix it change the leads.

[Myrtles Man]

It's not very easy to buy these days as demand has dropped off a cliff with modern cars rarely having such problems, but years ago 'Damp Start' as opposed to 'Easy Start' was a very common thing to have in the boot.

That's exactly what WD40 (Water Dispersant 40) is for isn't it?

[oliver90owner]

Looking under the bonnet (for stray sparking) while running the engine in complete darkness, can be quite revealing.