Timing cover leak solution?

Post by **ampwhu** » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:07 pm

great. thanks.

Post by **ampwhu** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:54 pm

all back together.

: timing chain finished.JPG (67.71 KiB) Viewed 1267 times

: engine 1.JPG (47.19 KiB) Viewed 1267 times

Post by **philthehill** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:49 pm

How did you secure the tensioner pivot pin?
It looks as if you have peened over the end of the pin.
There should be no requirement to do that as the head of the pin fits into the hole in the backplate/the alloy front plate come timing chain cover and is retained from moving by the head of the pin. See above photos.
Phil

Post by **ampwhu** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:51 pm

i had to make one. I used a 25mm M6 bolt and ground the head down. The reason for this is because the standard one won't allow the cover to fit. It's around 2mm to proud. the homemade pin sits against the cover and doesn't move.

Post by **philthehill** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:55 pm

The hole in the alloy engine plate should be deep enough to accommodate the head of standard tensioner factory fitted pivot pin. When fitted from the rear of the of the tensioner mount bracket as per factory fitment the pivot pin only protrudes 1.25mm.
The head of the tensioner pivot pin is 3mm deep. The standard pin is 6.3mm diameter. The length of the standard pin from the underside of the head to the tip is 26.8mm.
If you have to reverse and reduce the head of the M6 bolt to less than the standard 3mm to allow the fitment of the cover the depth of the M6 bolt head to me is insufficient. There is a lot of chatter on the pivot pin and if the pin is not correct, and of the correct grade steel, and not correctly fitted the pin can wear the inside of the cover, the mount bracket and may ultimately fail/shear which if it does will cause a lot of damage..
Personally I would go back to basics and ask why the factory fitted pin will not fit as it should. The front plate/timing chain cover case is advertised as being able to except the factory fitted tensioner - so why does it not fit as it should?
https://www.dsnclassics.co.uk/retrospor ... breather-/
I want you to succeed in this but I am concerned that you are spending all this money for it to go wrong.
Phil

Post by **ampwhu** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:21 pm

i tried the pin and pushed it in as far as it would go. It touched the rear alloy plate. There was too much of the head protruding out past the bracket. here is the pin i was sent

: pin1.JPG (28.22 KiB) Viewed 1243 times

: pin2.JPG (28.05 KiB) Viewed 1243 times

as you can see, the dims don't match yours. Now i can make this fit by reducing the length by about 2mm and then it would fit under the cover. Do you think this would be a better solution then the 6mm bolt i've already made?

the diameter is 6.3mm.

Post by **philthehill** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:29 pm

With the steel front engine plate the hole for the head of the tensioner pin goes right through the steel plate - therefore the head of the pivot pin is held between the front of the block and the rear face of the tensioner mount bracket.
The hole in the alloy front plate/case therefore should be either deep enough for the head of the pivot pin or drilled right through as per the factory fitted steel front engine plate.
The overall length of the ex factory fitted pin is 29.4mm - 29.8mm.

Post by **ampwhu** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:36 pm

it is drilled all the way through. Your saying the pin should touch the block face?

Am i fitting it the wrong way around? the thick end sticks out?

Post by **philthehill** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:41 pm

The head of the pin should be fitted towards the block and sat in the large hole in the alloy cover. See my photos above.
The large hole is there to allow the adjuster to pivot around the bottom holding bolt. If the hole was not the size it is - the head of the pin would stop the tensioner being adjusted to the correct tension.

Post by **ampwhu** » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:46 pm

so it looks like i have had it it wrong. I'll remove the cover tomorrow (for the 8th time i think) and attempt to fit the pin again, largest end in first towards the block face. I don't think it will fit still, but i'll have another go. I'll report back...........

Post by **ampwhu** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:13 am

my neighbours must think i'm cranky. What other odd ball is in there shed at 6am on a sunday?

Anyway, i have dismantled it all and re-checked. It is exactly as i previously thought, the pin does not fit. Now i know the pin is inserted the wrong way, but it only goes in this way. The pin end touches the block face so cannot go in any further.

: pin1.JPG (28.62 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

: pin2.JPG (39.82 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

: pin3.JPG (32.27 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

with the only way the pin inserts into the bracket, you cannot fit the cover on.

Now with my own made pin, less of the head is showing and the cover does fit on. the head of the pin rests against the cover, so cannot move anywhere.

: mypin1.JPG (29.04 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

so the only solution is to grind the head of the 'proper pin' down in order to get the cover on.

: pin4.JPG (45.2 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

Post by **ampwhu** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:17 am

: pin5.JPG (31.44 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

forgot to add that the cover now fits and the pin head toches the cover so cannot go anywhere. The narrow end of the pin toches the block face so is 'sandwiched' in position. This now covers the question of the correct grade of steel Phil.

so the original pin is a poor part from Taiwan of wherever or the DNS description is wrong and it doesn't fit under their cover.

Either way, its resolved and it's sorted.

And in answer to the original posters question, yes the cover doesn't leak. I oil the chain and put a healthy amount of oil in the timing cover. when removing the cover, oil came out. This prooves the cover is oil tight i guess??

Post by **philthehill** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:52 am

Whilst you may have resolved the problem the problem is still there. The front cover should allow the pin to be fitted as per the factory spec - that is fitted from the rear. You should not have to rely on the alloy front cover to retain the pin.
In my opinion for what it is worth - the head of the pin supplied is 3.9mm the head of the factory supplied pin is 3mm. The head of the supplied pin should be ground down just sufficient to allow the pin to be fitted from the rear so that it is held between two steel surfaces. As I said above there is a lot of chatter on the pin from the tensioner pad and any movement of the pin will wear the alloy cover.
It is up to you how you finally resolve the pin problem but to me fitting the pin from the front is bad engineering and should not be done.
Phil

Post by **ampwhu** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:01 am

but as mentioned, the pin only fits one way. The hole in the plate isn't big enough for the large end to fit through. It's either re-drill the plate so the large end sits against the block, or do it the way i have.

either way, the pin doesn't fit. you would still have to modify the pin.

Post by **philthehill** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:35 am

The hole in the plate/alloy front housing for the head of the pin to go through should be 6.8mm I.D. to allow the tensioner to be adjusted. The steel front engine plate is 3.8mm thick plus the thickness of the gasket say 1.5mm. so normally there is around 5.3mm clearance for the depth of the pin head. The depth of the pin supplied is 3.9mm so there should be sufficient clearance for the supplied pin to be fitted from the rear without modification to the pin.
If the hole in the alloy front housing is not of sufficient diameter for the head of the pin to pass through and also have some articulation this needs to be pointed out to the manufacturer so it can be rectified.
It may well be that the hole in the casing is there just for centring and has to be drilled out to 6.8mm if a tensioner assy is fitted.

Post by **ampwhu** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:18 pm

you've lost me. Im talking about the tensioner bracket. the hole isn't big enough for the pin to fit through. Both the pin and the bracket were purchased from the same supplier. there isn't a problem with the alloy cover other than the pin being to long for it allow the cover to fit.

as it is now fitted, the pin won't wear out the alloy cover. the pin touches the block and allows the cover to fit. the pin isn't a tight fit in the bracket, so it allows easy adjustment. without grinding the head off, it won't fit correctly. even if the original steel cover was fitted, the pin still wouldn't fit through the tensioner bracket but the cover would have fitted as it is a deeper cover.

i've made the best of the situation if i want to use the alloy cover, which i do. The reason for not using the metal cover is because the cannister is in the way of the fan blades and they are notorious for leaks at the bottom. Whether that's a twisted cover or poor gasket surface, the problem is still there and is well known. The alloy cover is a better solution al round as it's a modern solution. Pretty much the same as the MED rear seal conversion. (thats for another day).

I appreciate your advice as it is a lot more than mine but i'm happy with how i've 'engineered' a solution to adding a tensioner to a sloppy chain. My other cars have sloppy chains and they are duplex chains also so the duplex chains aren't as great as the suppliers and 'experts' out there make out.

Post by **philthehill** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:47 pm

The head of the pin is not supposed to go through the tensioner bracket only the body of the pin goes through. The head of the pin comes up against the back of the tensioner bracket and so cannot be pulled through/forward. See photos below.
The pin has to be installed before fitting the tensioner bracket/tensioner.
I suspect that the tensioner bracket and tensioner pin are correctly sized and if fitted as per factory all will be as it should.
Whilst you may have engineered a solution below are photos of the correct installation of the pin as I do not want others thinking that the pin fits from the front of the bracket. Both tensioners comprise Genuine BL parts

: Tensioner 22.JPG (1.62 MiB) Viewed 1165 times

: Tensioner 23.JPG (1.4 MiB) Viewed 1165 times

As with everything there are good duplex chains and mediocre duplex chains.
Phil

Post by **ampwhu** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:08 pm

this is the chicken and egg story. I have attempted to assemble it the way you have in the pictures above, but as i keep saying, it doesn't fit through the plate. i can't be anymore clearer. The way you have it makes no different to how i've done it so to me it's irrelevant. the pin wouldn't move either way so the outcome is the same.

Like i said, it's probably cheap asian parts.

Post by **Declan_Burns** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:54 pm

There was a diagram on here years ago concerning that pin. I don't know who it came from. I followed that suggestion when I installed the tensioner on my car and never had an issue with it.
Regards
Declan

Post by **ampwhu** » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:57 pm

that looks like another solution.

My pin i got, didn't look like this. its clear to see that the pin i have got, has a flat end and is not tapered.

http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... 0to%20shop

you can see both ends are tapered. I'm going to order this (with some other stuff i need) and see if this fits. I've always been one to admit when i'm wrong and also prefer to keep the piece.

I'll report back next week when i recieve it and we'll see.

Morris Minor Owners Club

Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?

Re: Timing cover leak solution?