Ignition

Discuss mechanical problems here.
Forum rules
By using this site, you agree to our rules. Please see: Terms of Use
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Hello all. Wonder if you could point me in the right direction to fix an issue I have with starting the Morris. When I turn the key there’s nothing, after a few more attempts he finally jumps into life. I’ve tried the turning lights on for a while but doesn’t cure it. The car is in a garage so cold but not that cold. Once started he starts first time for the rest of the day, then next day takes a few attempts again. I’ve attached a video to show what I mean.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0wFLB-p ... lasmUgEJ1g
don58van
Minor Addict
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:24 am
Location: New South Wales, Australia
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by don58van »

Hi Stanmo

I think it is likely that the starter solenoid is sticky. To check you could get someone to tap the solenoid while you hold the ignition switch in the start position.

It could also be dodgy connections between the ignition switch and the solenoid.

I wish you success with your troubleshooting.
Don
les
Minor Maniac
Posts: 8739
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:00 am
Location: kent
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by les »

I would agree the associated connections should be cleaned , the fact that it eventually starts suggests the circuit is ok but if cleaning doesn’t work, a faulty component is likely. Good luck with it.

Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Thanks all, will check these over the weekend.
As always Really appreciate the help, support and advice
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Thanks all, will check these over the weekend.
As always Really appreciate the help, support and advice
oliver90owner
Minor Legend
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 6:33 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Ignition

Post by oliver90owner »

Your video shows nothing to prove it is not the second key turn-on that is the difference between the keyed attempts.

It could be the ignition switch or solenoid. A check with a suitable piece of test equipment would soon diagnose the problem. A multimeter is a suitable diagnostic instrument to isolate the guilty part, before having to guess which bit is faulty.
simmitc
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4718
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:43 am
Location: Essex
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by simmitc »

Several simple things to try:

Look at the solenoid. On the side is a terminal with a white/red wire going to it. Remove that and attach a new piece of wire. With the car in neuitral and hands etc clear of moving engine parts, touch the other end of the new wire to the unearthed battery terminal. The solenoid should click and the starter motor turn. You can repeat numerous times to ensure that it always works. If yes, the the faulty is back towards the key switch, if no, then it is a faulty solenoid or starter motor. Remove the test wire and reconnect the original when you have finished.

If the above does not work, then use a proper jump lead to short out the large terminals on the solenoid. If the starter always turns then it is a faulty solenoid, if the motor does not always turn then it is the motor at fault.

When the key is not working, use a spanner to turn the square shaft on the forward end of the starter motor. Just move it a fraction of a turn and then try the key again. If it works then the starter motor needs attention, if it doesn't then the problem is back at the solenoid or key switch.

As long as the battery if well charged then there are only four thoings to test: The wiring, the key switch, the solenoid and the starter motor; and it's just a question of isolating where the problem lies.
Trickydicky
Minor Legend
Posts: 1565
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:53 pm
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire
MMOC Member: No

Re: Ignition

Post by Trickydicky »

It wouldn’t hurt to remove the solenoid and clean the rear of it to check it is earthed properly.
Richard

Opinions are like people,everyone can be different.
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Thank you SIMMITC, I plan to test these tomorrow, however being new to Morris Minors could I just confirm your instructions. Firstly the white red wire to the side, I think age may have turned mine more yellow but is this the wire to the right of the image attached? Also when you say attach to the unearthed terminal do you mean the live as my negative terminal is earthed? I know these are basics but as my dad always said “ measure, measure again then cut” sometimes it’s straight forward but terminology causes doubt.

Also I’ve noticed a empty connection on top (see image)? Am I missing something here?
Again thank you for your help and advice.
Attachments
Solenoid Morris 1000
Solenoid Morris 1000
2D232B0B-2006-468B-A002-5A347C0FC3B4.jpeg (1.07 MiB) Viewed 2016 times
Solenoid Morris 1000
Solenoid Morris 1000
7BF03F8B-2831-48B0-8EEA-699226648433.jpeg (1.33 MiB) Viewed 2016 times
Solenoid Morris 1000
Solenoid Morris 1000
1B2204A5-E5FC-4A05-87BF-4F7B4F1D81D4.jpeg (1.19 MiB) Viewed 2016 times
oliver90owner
Minor Legend
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 6:33 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Ignition

Post by oliver90owner »

That terminal, on the solenoid, with all the connections to/on it is connected directly to live side of your battery by the thick conductor. So a suitable supply is just a matter of only a few mm away.
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Sorry to ask so many questions so if I disconnect the red /white wire and the touch a wire from that point to the live feed it should test whether the solenoid is ok? In removing the white/red wire am I bi-passing the ignition,? Just for my own knowledge building.
kennatt
Minor Legend
Posts: 2625
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:11 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Ignition

Post by kennatt »

just so you are aware of how it works the thick wires with the bare nut are permanently live from positive battery ,the wire under the rubber cover goes down to the starter motor,when you switch ignition from on to the next position ,start,you feed power to the solenoid which is basically another switch, down the red and white ,an electro magnet is energised and feeds power down the rubber covered wire to the starter motor. Once started let go of the key and the started motor disengages and off you go.So feed power down the red and white from any positive and you have basically bypassed the action of the ignition key. Simple system,but be aware that the thick uncovered terminal and all it's attached wires are LIVE so if touched to any earth will spark .Shorting across this terminal to the rubber covered wire will bypass the solenoid,and spin the starter motor Or not if fault is in the motor,but will also cause large sparking ,Just so you will not be alarmed if you do it,its normal. good luck
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Thanks for the explanation on how this works, makes more sense now and I feel confident to test. I’ll let you know outcome.
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Tested this morning. First checked the red white terminal by removal of connection and using a piece of wire from here to live terminal. First few touches nothing then it started clicking. Next I checked the live to rubber connector and there was movement straight away with alternator and fan moving also. Reconnecting the car started first time and then stalled and then nothing. Removed and reconnected ignition wire and again started first time. Next job clean all the terminals.
King Kenny
Minor Fan
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:01 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Ignition

Post by King Kenny »

Clean the battery terminals whilst you are at it.
1969 Traveller in Almond green. Owned since 1979.
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Update. All connections clean but still a delay when starting. Would I be right in narrowing this down to the solenoid as when tested it took a few touches of the live wire before it started clicking? I’ve read something about solenoids sticking? Could this be my issue?
bufferzone
Minor Friendly
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:18 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Ignition

Post by bufferzone »

with the key in the on position, I can push down on the black button located between the solenoid’s terminals to start my car. Manual override if you will. You might push on this button a few times to see if that loosens it up. It could be the solenoid’s internals is going bad and replacement is the only solution.
Stanmo
Minor Friendly
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by Stanmo »

Checked but there’s no button on mine, it’s a 68? Maybe bite the bullet and order a new one.
kennatt
Minor Legend
Posts: 2625
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:11 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Ignition

Post by kennatt »

If the solenoid and starter motor are working as soon as you touch and hold the wire hard onto the terminal(Red and white you have to hold it on not just touch it) you should hear and feel the solenoid clunk as it switches power to the rubber terminal to the starter,the starter should then engage and spin the engine.(Ign off to stop engine firing up)If so then your fault is the feed from the ignition switch (swtich or wire or connections) if no sign of the starter engaging,but you hear t he clunk from the solenoid, then the solenoid is ok and the fault lies with the feed to or within the starter motor.If no obvious clunk then duff solenoid .
To check feed and starter again with ign off You need a heavy duty wire ,a good jump lead is ideal,clamp one end of lead onto the exposed nut, pull rubber cover out of the way and firmly touch and hold the other end of lead hard onto that terminal,if the feed , all connections and starter are ok then starter will turn engine over.If not then fault lies in wiring terminals, solenoid(Just because they clunk dosent mean they are working they sometimes corrode inside and don't transfer the power to the rubber terminal) or starter motor.Don't use a thin wire there is a high demand on this side of the system and the wire will get hot and melt, if brave enough :D you can use a long insulated spanner or screwdriver to short the terminal . Try above and report result good luck

In all of this one unasked question,is the battery ok ,because the fault is also typical of a failing battery.
simmitc
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4718
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:43 am
Location: Essex
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Ignition

Post by simmitc »

If I understand correctly, you have used a wire direct from the battery to the solenoid, and still get a hesitation. You have bridged the two large terminals and the motor always spins. QED the solenoid is faulty. The symptoms pointed to that, but conducting the tests seems to prove it, and it's always better to prove with methodical tests rather than just guessing, and you have done that.

You can fit a new one with the manual button like this https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/129. The button is useful for testing and also when working on the engine, but not essential.
Post Reply