To spray or not to spray.

[youngun]

After doing a lot of dismantling work, I have realised that im not going to be able to get away with just respraying the wings, doors etc.
So I pose the question first of all, do I do it myself or get it proffesionally done.
I am also not very keen on the Colour my mog is wearing at the moment, its the Smoke/Blue grey colour. I would much prefer to have a black minor. Is it sacrelidge to spray it, in effect, the WRONG colour? And how much more work would this take, as the condition of the paint on the dash etc at the moment is pretty much perfect.

Thanks,
YG

[jonathon]

Its 'your' car so do with it what ever you wish. Painting black will show more imperfections in the bodywork than the blue original, so you may be involved in a good deal more prepwork. The interior will only need to be scotched lightly before spraying.
Pro or DIY its your choice and whether you feel confident enough. Also for DIY only spray celly and not 2K. For best results, but not cheap, spray the car in black basecoat then laquer ontop, this way you will achieve a better longer lasting shine, plus when you polish you will not loose black paint. If/when it does dull, just flat back with 1200 paper and re-laquer.

[kennatt]

these days a pro paint colour change,ie inside engine bay and interior,including boot will cost you about three times what the car will be worth after the job is done.You may need to get a mortgage to pay for it .Would look good though..

[youngun]

Jonathon, this black basecoat/lacquer combination....is that a 2k job or celly?

It is very tempting to do the mog in black and seeing as im going to be servicing most of it i spose the slight bit of extra work to gut the interior will be worth it.
The black will show more imperfections, but the more time i spend on it, the better it will look. When i was spraying my motorcycle frame a few years back, it was very badly rust pitted, and i sprayed on this ghastyly orange "expanding filler primer" which looked awful when sprayed on, but after it had dried and had been wet and dryed, it left the frame totally smooth and imperfection free......is such a thing available for cars?

thanks,
YG

[bmcecosse]

It is - but it won't hide rust! It's a huge job to do a complete colour change spray job. Think long and hard before you get into it.

[jonathon]

YG, yes you can base and laquer in celly. The only'must do' aspect of painting particulary with celly is not to go down to the original red paint layer and use this as a first layer, you are best to flat through to the steel and start again. Plus if you know that there is filler beneath the original paint, then remove and feather edge the paint and apply dry coats of primer followed by a few wet. Leave at least 4 days in a dry warm environment and then wet flat, do not spray top coat within 24 hours of wet flatting.
If you can affoed it, buy some Davids Reface, this is a fantastic product which fills and isolates the previous layers of paint. Its a high build filler primer ideal for spraying dark colours. We would give 4 coats of this'thick', then dry flat with 180 then finish with 240. Re prime 3-4 coats then wet flat, base and laquer.
Good luck

[youngun]

YG, yes you can base and laquer in celly. The only'must do' aspect of painting particulary with celly is not to go down to the original red paint layer and use this as a first layer, you are best to flat through to the steel and start again. Plus if you know that there is filler beneath the original paint, then remove and feather edge the paint and apply dry coats of primer followed by a few wet.
Good luck

Jonathon, im not up on the lingo in some cases!
Particuarly feather edgeing, and the difference between a wet coat of primer and a dry coat!!

Ive been looking around, Jawel seem to do a good selection of paints.
I will be stripping all the outiside of the car back to bare metal as in my opinion its the only way you can be sure you will get rid of all the rust. Panels will most likely be sandblasted. I was thinking along the lines of, from bare metal, 3 coats of zinc rich primer then the steps you suggested.

As for spraying equipment, well im going to be investing in a new compressor and gun, HVLP of course. But do i go for a gravity feed one or the usual style?

Thanks,
YG

[alex_holden]

Careful with the zinc primer, I had a few problems on Fenchurch with the cellulose primer cracking in places. I think it had to do with different drying rates and the thinners in the cellulose primer reactivating the zinc primer. Where it happened I wound up stripping back to bare metal and starting again with just etch primer.

I would be inclined to go for a gravity fed gun if I was buying one as there were a number of times when I accidentally brushed the bottom of the suction-fed paint pot against the freshly sprayed paint on the roof, plus it would start stuttering when there was still about 100ml of paint left.

I agree that it is a huge amount of work to do it right - allow several months if you have to fit it into weekends and evenings like me.

[jonathon]

YG, feather edging is simlpy getting rid of all edges in the paintwork where you may have sanded back into previous layers.To achieve this flat each layer of an edge to show about a half inch or more of each layer. working from say, bare metal through to the top layer should give you a gradated 'smoothly stepped' area of about 4". A dry coat of paint or 'header coat', hanger coat', or grip coat, is exactly that, a misted on layer of paint onto which further layers will be applied. A wet coat is normally two passes of the gun over the same area,one in each direction. Enough paint should be applied to see a wet coat but not too much to cause runs. Hold your gun at about 60% to the surface you are painting, and 'lay the paint on, do not spray at 90% to the job and try and keep the gun the same distance from the job wherever you paint.
Good move going to bare, as you know exactly what you need to do for a good result.
Make sure that the zinc primer is compatible with the primer and topcoat, and allow plenty of drying time.
You need two guns really, a primer gun (cheap Sealey) one will do fine, and the best finishing gun you can afford. As for gravity or suction its your choice. Gravity would be my personal choice though.

Hope this helps

[youngun]

Thanks Jonathon!

I will most likely go for a gravity feed gun, as ive had annoying spits and flicks from suction ones in the past!

[jonathon]

Just remember that you have less volume of paint in a gravity gun, to keep rge weight down. Practice a few times especially on spraying awkward areas and upside down as gravity guns don't like doing this. I always used a suction gun, and the cross over was quite a revalation as to what you can and cannot do with these guns.
I would go along with Alex and just use etch primer and a highbuild primer, or go straight to the Davids Reface which doesnot need an etch, and will react if you do, followed by a few coats of high build primer, used to be APS1 when I last used it, but things may have moved on since then.

[youngun]

Right, a list of what coats i need to do would be great, as all this talk is somewhat confusing!

[jonathon]

Two choices
1. Davids reface 4 heavy coats, then dry flat with 180-240, use a guide coat with this. Then follow with 4 coats of primer, wet flat with 600-800, then basecoat black 3-4 coats then 3-4 coats of laquer, wet flat this with 2000 and cut back with G3 cutting compound. Allow plenty of time for each application to dry throughly except between basecoat and laquer which must ideally be done within 12 hours of each other.
2. Go for etch primer 2 thin coats,followed by the basecoat etc.
3. Do all of the prep work inc panel gaps etc and farm out to a pro bodyshop to topcoat in basecoat and 2K laquer.
Above all try to buy the best paint you can afford, avoid Autopaint, especially basecoats and laquer, go for Lechler or Max Meyer, more expensive, but hopefully you will only do this once. We would normally buget £400-600 just for paint, more if using top quality products.

[youngun]

Thanks Jonaton,

These next few months will be a great learning curve!

[youngun]

I was looking at paints, Jawel seem to do a good range of celly paints. Has anyone had any experience of them? And would i have to cellulose lacquer over the top of it>?

Thanks,
YG

[chickenjohn]

I have used Lechler paints and they give a really nice finish in Celly. I used them because thats what my local paint factors supply.

[jonathon]

YG you only need to use lacquer if going the basecoat route, and yes if DIY job it needs to be celly. If you just want to spray normally then a solid colour is what you want, also in celly.

[chickenjohn]

jonathon, just to slightly hijack the thread- are we likely to get reaction between the bottom layer of red paint on the car, where exposed and etch primers and cellulose paints? Is it going to wrinkle and lift and crack?

I guess I could just try a small area first.

[alex_holden]

I haven't noticed any problem where I sprayed etch primer over exposed bits of the original red primer. The etch primer I used is called "U-POL Acid #8" and it came in a 1 litre tin already mixed with the correct ratio of thinners.

[dunketh]

I was looking at paints, Jawel seem to do a good range of celly paints. Has anyone had any experience of them?

The distinct lack of any answer probably speaks volumes here. I too wandered about them as they sell a lot on ebay.

I'm spraying my car black soon, once I've sorted out the other things on 'the list' and was recommended by a mate to just buy 'Taxi' black.
Apparently its just a cheap gloss black celly. He sprayed a classic beetle with it and the finish is flawless. I guess like most things its what you do with it that counts.