Door Repair panels, prices of welding them on.

[MoggyTech]

It all boils down to a few simple choices

1: Do all the work yourself and save on professional labour rates
2: Allow the car to rot
3: Sell car if finances don't allow classic car ownership
4: Have all work done by a garage/bodyshop

Surely bodyshops are not just frequented by Lotto Winners. Some garages get bad press and for good reasons like poor quality work, but surely we cannot bad press all Pro Tradesmen just because they charge going rates for quality work. I like to support my local small business groups. I always go to the local motor factor for service items, and they bend over backwards to source as many Rover/Morris parts as they can.

People tend to forget the overheads any decent size business has. Business rates are incredible, heating, lighting, staff etc.

Perhaps there is an MMOC member with welding skills close the the original poster, willing to offer some help?

[chickenjohn]

If the original poster joins his local branch he is sure to find a few keen and skilled enthusiasts who make a few extra pennies by doing this kind of job for folk. It will be much cheaper than a "pro" job due to no overheads and you shoud get a high quality repair as well.

[Chief]

The original poster mentioned that money's tight though so under the circumstances it's probably far better to keep an eye out for good replacement doors.

Of course, the reason money is tight is due to my buying the repair panels already

If the original poster joins his local branch he is sure to find a few keen and skilled enthusiasts

Unfortunately there is no local branch round these parts. The nearest branch (a considerable distance away) reccomended a garage in Dundee for any repairs that local garages refused to do. There once was talk of a branch opening round these parts, but to my knowledge our car is now the sole surviving moggy in the area.

On the plus side of things, we've discovered one garage, which at least have their prices towards the lower end of the scale. though not that close to us, it is at least near enough to be affordable when money is available.

[d_harris]

I do agree with others that replacement doors are the way to go to keep things cheap, if not nessecarily perfect.

When money does free up and if you can find some time learning to weld would be a really wise thing to do though.

PM Sent BTW

[bmcecosse]

Are we to understand the Charles Ware quoted £3100 to do the job - and then charged £6000 ? If so - take note and beware (no pun intended).
Not to make any light of the situation - but even the original quote would have given me a heart attack.

[jonathon]

Well this sum of £3100 equates to about 65 hrs labour plus parts and vat. Does not include paint,materials and sundries. Now consider that extra unforseen work was required, if the customer agreed the work and extra cost, where is the problem.
The Minor is no longer a survival car as it was in the 80's, unless you drive around in a mint version, when the running costs are negligable. Unfortunately most owners buy in at the bottom end of the market ,unaware of the costs of professional costs. Many do not possess the ability to effect DIY repairs, and if they did then would prefer in many situations to opt for a pro fix.
Trouble is this problem will develop and the cost of ownership and maintenance will rise above most folks budget. One benefit from this though is that they will be prepared to pay for quality parts, and workmanship. This will help restore the good name of the specialist minor traders who seem to be getting an unfair bashing at the moment.

[bmcecosse]

Ah - but a firm like Charles Ware should not have had any 'unforseen work' to do - that's the point I am trying to make. They will know exactly what is involved. A quote is a quote.

[bigginger]

I was in agreement with BMC over the £3,100 quote, but did my maths - it's £50 an hour for 62 hours, btw, That doesn't include any parts, materials overheads or VAT, so the real hourly rate is going to be less, even it the hours are fewer, I'd say.
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[jonathon]

I worked out that the £3100 inc vat less £300 worth of panels at a labour rate of £35ph being about 65 hrs. Do they charge £50 per hour at CW's.
Its totally unrealistic to give a definite 'quote'. We never 'quote',only estimate to our best ability. It doesn't take long to add substantially to an estimate, especially with floor replacement and associated problems. So long as the customer if kept in the know at all times. Many cars will have been repaired or bodged over the years and this can take its toll on the trueness of the shell. Any welder can weld in panels in but it takes skill and experience to re introduce strength and correct alignment of major chassis panels.

[bigginger]

I was agreeing with you No clue what CW charge per hour, but £50 doesn't seem terribly excessive. Don't quote me over the maths though - never passed the O level

[jonathon]

Good man BG , I'll think about raising our rate

[bigginger]

I was bearing in mind that we were told (central London job) that it costs the employer at least as much again as the employee's wage to employ them

[bmcecosse]

The original quote was probably fair enough - and had been accepted. But the final cost is just not worth it - the car looks fine in the pics - but will never be worth that expense, and I consider it wrong of someone to take on work and then not be able to complete it for the quoted price. However - let's see what it fetches in the auction.

[jonathon]

They probably did just that BM, ie a floor replaced for the quoted cost but the unforseen work adds to it. If you just stop at the end of the quoted work and do not do the extra required work then the car 'is' worthless. and a £3K overspend the size of the unforseen must have been significant. I think all bodyshops have been in this position and many have taken quite a financial 'hit' to try and ease the cost to the customer.
I think the argument about worth, depends on entirely which angle you approach your car. In my opinion if you want a trouble free A-B car for upto £2K then buy a Golf or the like. If your passionate about the marque, can do Diy or are prepared to pay the Pros then think about a Minor, but in the knowledge that you might spend many times its worth to keep it in the best condition.
A bit like double glazing, in theory its good to save on fuel costs and be efficient, despite the fact that you will never pay for it in the % of bills you save. So whats the point

[chickenjohn]

Jonothan wrote:-"One benefit from this though is that they will be prepared to pay for quality parts, and workmanship. This will help restore the good name of the specialist minor traders who seem to be getting an unfair bashing at the moment."

Some of the specialist Minor work I've seen was truly shocking, panels crudely welded over rust, etc. I think the majority of 'specialists" like this need to vastly improve their standards before they avoid the "unfair bashing".

[jonathon]

Well I agree 100% John. We are always amazed at quantity of poor workanship even from the big established names.
A degree of questioning needs to be applied here though. Did the customer want a cheap job to gain an Mot, was it a stop gap repair, has the customer the funds to do a proper repair.The full story needs to be known, and only then can a valid criticism be made.
However when folk say things like '99% of them are cowboys' and your assumption that '...the majority of 'specialists'...' it makes my blood boil as no detail is given as to how many 'specialists' work they have seen, it might be only one or two, yet this seems to allow them/you the right to criticise us all in the same vein.
This forum is read by many existing and new/guest members and the constant reference to us being either non trust worthy or inept at our trade does very little to help those of us who do care passionately about both these cars and our trade.
Hopefully if the MMOC can decide on the trader 'recommendation' or approved trader list, as this will go some way to protecting both customer and trader in the future. But I suppose the usefulness of such a system is reliant on full trade participation, and a commitment by the MMOC to take action if a trader is prosecuted and receives a CCJ.Its still early days for this system to be agreed on, and I feel the sooner it happens the better. It really does need to be supported by MMOC members, and attendance at the meetings I have been to or heard about ,has been very poor indeed.
So if you want something done about 'poor' traders get involved ,and make valid/informed suggestions, to improve the situation.

[chickenjohn]

" degree of questioning needs to be applied here though. Did the customer want a cheap job to gain an Mot, was it a stop gap repair, has the customer the funds to do a proper repair.The full story needs to be known, and only then can a valid criticism be made. "

Fair enough, in the case of one car where I'm going to have to cut the sill panels off that were welded in over rust, the last owner had asked for the car to be restored, not just patched up for the MOT.

The four traders I'm referring to (three bad and one great) are all based in the SE of England- so this is no reflection on Jonothan's work which I have not personally seen.

I believe the one good trader who's work I have seen does not do botch up jobs and allways works to a high standard.

[chickenjohn]

Its fair enough for an MOT garage who may not know better to slap a plate on to get the car cheaply through the MOT, but you might hope for better from a specialist.

Jonothan wrote '...the majority of 'specialists'...'makes my blood boil"

I was referring to the ones I have seen, not the majority overall. Anyone considering getting work done in the SE should referr to their local branch for advice. We name and shame at the branch meetings!!!

[jonathon]

John, its interesting that your branch 'name and shame', might I suggest that your findings/experiences are forwarded to John Frye, who collates this sort of information. At the 06 AGM John revealed that only 6, yes SIX complaints had been made to the MMOC about traders or products. I believe if my memory serves me correctly that 4 of these were concerning gearboxes and not the quality of service.
So if you/one has a genuine problem or bad experience concerning a trader then make sure that all of the facts are compiled and sent to the club.
Hopefully if the MMOC adopt some sort of policing of the trade, we will all reap the benefits.
Regarding MOT repairs, we get many 'shoe string' run cars arriving at the workshop with the owners only wanting a patch up for the MOT. We refuse to become involved in this type of work, so suggested that he at least staged a restoration. The car had 5 layers to the floor, the chassis legs were like John Waynes legs and the X member was now an internal feature and the axle hanging on in there on one spring hanger only. We estimated a minimum of £3K's worth of work with further visits to fully restore the underside. Needless to say, the car was worth only scrap value, so was driven away to have some poor sole at an MOT station bodge the job up for him.

[chickenjohn]

Jonathon, I think you have a great idea there, sadly it won't work (fear of litigation/defamation/being sued etc). We do it infomally at branch level with the local traders and national parts suppliers. No comebacks for the club and the (potential) customer votes with his feet.

I subscribe to the Which magazine and they recently did a review of garages nationally over servicing standards, only 4 out of 50 garages got it right. Main dealers were just as bad, often worse than small independants. It would be great if they did a Which style consumer report into Minor specialists or resto/ classic car garages in general. However, I feel that would too specialised both from the point of view of technical judging and potential audience interest for Which, who do name and shame and somehow avoid litigation.

Maybe, as a subscriber I should write to them and suggest the idea.