flex in floor

[robandsophie]

Yep was going with gassed welding, although gas-less probably has its place. The Clarke gassed welder 150TE gets good reviews in mig forums so was going for that one with VAT of! Unless anyone else has found something cheaper and as good.
Next question is do I need to use jig to work on under side or can I get away with jacking up and laying onto tyres. If latter will this cause problems with lining up panels?

[Mark Wilson]

I made a simple rollover spit, but many people have rolled theirs on to tyres so should be ok. However, assuming you are starting with the cross member, I did mine with the car the right way up after I'd done the sills, with most of the floor removed. (I tidied up the welds when I rolled it later.) Have a search for Fingolfin's contribution to this old thread, I copied his method, including the definitely non purist cutting off of the camel hump part of the transmission tunnel, but I did remove the torsion bars.

http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... rossmember

[bmcecosse]

In the end -I was short of time and 'got away' with just fitting one repair end. The other side had already been repaired long before I got the car (20 years ?) Had to use gasless MIG since working out doors, and frankly it did a better job than with the 'gas' - partly because being thicker, it fed through from the drive rollers much more evenly. I would have used oxy/acet but was running low on oxygen and wanted to save it for when there was no option. It's passed a couple of MOTs - but will all need doing one of these days.

[trabant]

I'd leave the Clarke welder well alone I've had two both were a bit rubbish sealey welders are reasonable ive got one at present better feed than Clarke top of the pile hobby migs I'd say are Sip excellent smooth wire feed very controlled amperage. Cebora / snap-on are good but overpriced. I've seen good spec new gassed Sip machines on ebay for £174 well worth the extra £20 on top of the price of a Clarke. My personal favorite is my Murex which is a beast of a thing and cost £10 at a local auction

[kennatt]

absolutely nothing wrong with the Clarke welders as long as you don't buy the cheaper ones,and buy a dual /gas/gasless,you can use the gas if you want,but it has limitations ie outside mainly,and also hard to control welding under neath pointing up since the gas tends to fall away from the weld. One of the main advantages of gassless it that you can take the shield off pull the trigger to let an inch of wire out of the tip,then poke the wire into tight corners ,.. Gasless wire is also available at most motor factors B&Q etc.When you see the price of the small gas canisters that last about 20minutes you may make your mind up,unless you are going to pay a fortune to hire large bottles and regulators. but your choice of course. Buy an expensive pro model,and yes it will be better but how much welding over the next 10 years(Had my Clarke that long)do you intend doing that's the question to ask.

[chickenjohn]

I haven't read the whole thread, but would just like to add that excessive flexing in the Minor floor can be due to hairline cracks.

Clean up the area carefully with wire brush on grinder and inspect for cracks. If you find any, cut out and butt weld in a new section.

[bmcecosse]

Indeed - shine a bright light (ie 500w flood) from below - and in the dark garage look for signs of cracks/holes inside.

[robandsophie]

Great info as always, thanks.
I plan to take out the prop and brake pipes, do I remove wires from individual areas or cut wiring loom in half and then joint them back together with a jointing block? What have others done? I want to put the crossmember in one piece, I have read you can cut in half and weld it up again (to allow prop, etc to stay in place).

[bmcecosse]

Keep it in one piece - and I advise to simply undo and thread the wiring harness back through and out of the way - don't use connector blocks or anything like that. You can of course run the wiring (and the brake pipe) through inside the car rather than underneath.

[chickenjohn]

This is what i found when removed the black crap off. I don't think its too structural just a bit of patch welding then rust treat and paint over. What do others think? Do I replace the front N/S chassis or leave for another day when really 'gone'.-snip-[frame][/frame]

I'm sorry to imform you, but that is VERY structural! and quite dangerous.

I've snipped the other pictures because while the chassis leg patches are overlapped and the welding is not the best (looks a bit like gasless Mig welding) the welds are at least continuous with no gaps. Ideally, these sections should be butt welded in and the weld ground down. It's possible to make a near invisible repair on the chassis leg with just a little more effort.

However the above picture looks frightening! This is the floor edge sill panel RP-135 R that jpins the floor, outer sill panel, spring hanger and crossmember and also the boxing panel. It is a very important part of the sill structure. The weld here in this example is just a few short beads and it looks as though much of the panel has not actually been welded to the spring hanger at all!! (see the "crack" on the right of the photo). This alone could cause the rear floor pan to flex! (if the non welded crack extents forward of the seat box). The rear part also appears to be more white sealer rather than weld. This should all be continuous seam welded as it is within 12" of a suspension point. It is also most definitely an MOT failure. I would advise anyone not to go to whichever garage fitted this section. (If it's the garage we think it is that did this work).

To fix it you need to dig out all the white sealer and see if the metal at the rear of the repair (next to the wheel arch) is sound, then clean it up to bright metal and weld it all fully together. Then grind down, prime, seam seal and use a good paint.

[bmcecosse]

I'm not sure if it's 'white sealer' - or just light reflected from freshly ground metal - but I certainly agree it's poor/shoddy work, and the spring front mount almost appears to be bending away from the floor, and perhaps 'digging in' at the rear. What does it look like under the rear seat? And is the other side similar? This all needs much further investigation.

[Redmoggy]

I've been away from the UK for some years but my understanding of the regulations is that a repair panel must be continuously welded where it is joined into a section but a join at a factory seam should replicate the factory welds. If you continuously weld along the edge of the sill seam you not only create a water trap but you create a join that can flex at it's top edge causing it to fail?

Rod

[chickenjohn]

You are correct Rod that repairs should be continuously welded, and this is where there was originally a continuous piece of metal. Where we see the crack at the right hand side in the picture above, in a rust free car this would be a continuous sheet of metal. Therefore the repair is an MOT failure and dangerous. This is not the position of a factory seam, which as you correctly say should be spot (or plug) welded as per factory manufacture.

[robandsophie]

Thanks, didn't like the look of it when I uncovered it. I think it will need the lot removing and starting fresh. I got the name of a local body shop (who are used to minors), and are supposed to be really good, so taking Mervyn the morris there Saturday - for a look and price! I will upload photos as I go along (currently cleaning off the floor to see what else is lurking). Have to admit I am quite enjoying working on Mervyn, but disappointed it is more work than I had wanted. I think I might keep this thread updated as a warning to others (if you think would be useful), I will include work done and costs.
Bit embarrassed really got sucked in with supposed reputable work all invoiced and didn't check all the areas as I should have. I think various 'welders' have had a go at this not just one shop.

[colin addison]

On the subject of MIG gas I have recently, after many years, given up using BOC as my supplier. The rental is around £100pa and some years I didn't use it at all. There is a place in Margate which charges a £60 returnable deposit on a smaller cylinder, and even delivers free. Cylinder charge is £30. I do live in Kent though and don't know how far they travel. There might well be someone does a similar system in your area?
Colin

[olderisbetter]

On the subject of MIG gas I have recently, after many years, given up using BOC as my supplier. The rental is around £100pa and some years I didn't use it at all. There is a place in Margate which charges a £60 returnable deposit on a smaller cylinder, and even delivers free. Cylinder charge is £30. I do live in Kent though and don't know how far they travel. There might well be someone does a similar system in your area?
Colin

I use argo shield from BOC on the volkszone deal, the gas is £33.38 and yearly rental £47.34 inc VAT.
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/thre ... 05/page-40
Hope that helps some people out.

[panky]

I used to work for said company and it was often said that it wasn't an industrial gasses company but a cylinder rental business I never used them - too expensive.

[Mark Wilson]

I'm very nearly complete on welding my Traveller - all sills, floors, flitches, chassis legs, crossmember, all spring hangers, rear inner wings and boot floor. I haven't counted accurately, but I've used around fifteen small CO2 disposable bottles, say £250. I always thought I was being uncharacteristically careless with money, but this has been over five years, so looking at cylinder rental rates I haven't actually done that badly. And working in a small garage the small bottles are much, much more convenient.

[panky]

I use the larger sized CO2, about a metre tall inc regulator. I know the results aren't as good as Argoshield but at £12 for a cylinder refill, and no rental, it will do for me. It initially cost about £80 for the cylinder and reg but I did loads of welding with it over a period of four years and it still had gas in it, then exchanged it for £12 before the test period was up on the cylinder.

[olderisbetter]

I use the larger sized CO2, about a metre tall inc regulator. I know the results aren't as good as Argoshield but at £12 for a cylinder refill, and no rental, it will do for me. It initially cost about £80 for the cylinder and reg but I did loads of welding with it over a period of four years and it still had gas in it, then exchanged it for £12 before the test period was up on the cylinder.

For CO2 that sounds a good deal, if it was the same size bottle as my argoshield i would be interested in that as i do some heavier welding and it seems a shame to waste argoshield on just general fabrication. Is it a comapny local to you or are there branches around the UK?