Bare Metal Restoration

[Malwar]

Hi,

I have just bought a 1961 Morris Traveller and want to carry out a bare metal restoration. I would really like to know what to treat the metal with once I have taken all the paint off, also how would I treat any rust patches prior to painting. I have used a product from Frost Restoration called Metal Prep and that seemed to work well, any advice would be most welcome.

Thanks
Adam

[mogbob]

Adam
There a lot of products out there e.g Frost, Bilt Hammer , Dinitrol , Jenolite and a few others I've not mentioned.
There are also a lot of opinions / supporters who will tell why " all the others " are rubbish and why " X " is the only one to buy.
If you are getting a Professional Body shop to paint it , seek their recommendation first.

The important thing is to get the metal as clean as possible with a wire brush on a drill , power file, emery paper whatever and then , if the metal is sound treat it with a chemical neutralizer as soon as possible. If you spray primer on without any treatment , after a few months the metal will start absorbing moisture and the rusting starts all over again.

It goes without saying if the metal is weak ,cut it out now and weld in patches / new complete panels as appropriate.

The products are not cheap so don't rush into a decision and whatever you do , stick to the same product / treatment / preparation throughout the resto.

Welcome to the Forum , keep your questions coming ( reports of how successful or otherwise , the advice was...is always appreciated ). There is no such thing as a daft question only daft people who ( believing they have all the answers ) make a hash of things. Adding your location ( e.g nearest town ) not your full address , on your Malwar profile , if you're happy to .....
might elicit an offer of practical help on future problems.i.e. people can see if you are local to them.
Good luck with it and have fun in the process.
Bob

[Malwar]

Bob,

many thanks for the advice, this is the first time I have attempted this. What make of chemical neutraliser would you suggest, would this treat/prevent rust? I haven't found a body shop yet, I was hoping to do much of the preparation work myself, not just to save money but to learn as well. I will take your advice and speak with the body shop once I have found a good one.

Regards

Adam

[greendefender123]

I use phosphoric acid. Seems to work really well. On heavily rusted bits I apply it and wire brush it back and reapply I get on well with it.[frame][/frame]

[RobThomas]

Citric acid powder from Ebay is great for smaller items. Plastic tub/bucket and boiling water.
White powder that arrives in a plain looking package. Postman very curious. Looks like some of Columbia's finest!

[mogbob]

Adam
Greendefender123's suggestion of Phosphoric acid is good ( I believe it's in a number of the other products ) as is Rob's suggestion. The joy of these products ? ,don't splash them around, H & S gloves and safety googles , etc unless you like pain.
It's a bit like using paint stripper I guess, I learnt a lot of new dance moves when I got some on my skin ! A bucket of water to hand , is useful.

The chemical reaction usually turns the metal black in colour so you can see what you've dealt with. You'll need old paint brushes to gently apply modest amounts to the shell at a time. The acid alternative ,with no added extras , would work out cheaper. Small bits that can be taken off the car can be soaked overnight in a locked shed or garage to keep pets safe. Allow the treatment to dry thoroughly before applying any primer / paint.

When I did my first Classic car restoration I used Jenolite but it was the old formula ,not the current one. Hence my reluctance to be specific. Known brands are good but expensive. It's the usual dilemma with car restoration , how much time and money have you got to throw at the problem. If you get a professional to do it and the timescale is short it's going to be a big bill !
Bob

[RobThomas]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2Kg-CITRIC-AC ... Swu4BV1Fym

This stuff leaves the steel with a clean surface with no 'stuff' on it so once you've rinsed and dried it off you can go straight to painting. It isn't at all toxic and you can eat a spoonful of it (Sherbet Dabs are made from it) It will leave a dirty stain on tarmac if you tip the residue out but it is otherwise safe to dispose of down the drain. A Kilo did the entire car collections of nuts, bolts and brackets etc.

[Malwar]

Thank you for all the advice. I will start next week and post some photos, I am sure I will have a few more questions!!!
Adam

[Malwar]

With the Phosphoric acid, can you apply a primer straight away or does it need to be rinsed off?

Adam

[greendefender123]

I like to rough it up with a wire brush. Tho on paint work I would sand it back. When you use it you'll see. You need to were goggles when using it. Iv got a face shield now. I had finished with it one day but realised I'd missed abit so quickly done it without goggles. Flicked straight in my eye. I was rinsing it for 40 mins. Was hurting for ages. Tho other products will be as bad.

[don58van]

With the Phosphoric acid, can you apply a primer straight away or does it need to be rinsed off?

I did a short college course on vehicle painting.

We were taught to use a phosphoric acid-based product to treat the metal just before painting. It was stressed that we had to wash it off with water and get it dry ASAP. When completely dry, if there is a whiteish residue from the phosphoric acid, it hasn't been cleaned off properly. In that case, re-treat with the acid and clean it off again with the aim off leaving no white residue when dried.

No doubt a painting expert will be along soon to agree/disagree.

Don

[Coalmossian]

I've quickly read the posts above and concur with the use of such mildly acidic solutions such as citric acid, phosphoric acid etc. Branded products such as those from Bilt Hammer such as DeOx C also do the job but are a lot more expensive!
However, what I didn't see mentioned was the fact that if ANY of these water based solutions are to work they require two things.
Whatever you are de-rusting must be thoroughly and totally degreased or the solution will not be in contact with the rust. Also all paint must be removed.
Secondly it must be in contact with the rust for some time...not easy on vertical surfaces etc. I soak pieces of tissue/kitchen towel in the solution then apply it to the surface, cover it in cling film for a while to prevent premature drying and then neutralise with a dilute alkaline solution of bicarbonate of soda. Then rinse off and dry with a hot air gun or hair drier.

[RobThomas]

Bicarb. Great idea!

I've worked on the assumption that if the old paint is still sticking that there isn't much rust under it on small or insignificant components. On bigger stuff I either get it blasted by a guy in Barry (£600 for an entire car, inside and out) or blast it myself with Copper Slag, Glass beads or Garnet. Roloc discs are a handy tool if you have a local company (Ooooh, something like British Airways? Ahem. ) that doesn't keep track of the numbers being issued. Scotchbrite pads are also good for this. Citric acid, rubber gloves, Scotchbrite pad and some elbow grease will tidy up a lightly rusted surface like a floorpan or a bolt shank.[frame][/frame][frame][/frame]

A7 headlamp bowls. Rotten bits cut out, body pickled overnight once the paint scuffed off, welded up and Roloc'd to key the surface for paint. Done in a hurry so not cosmetically tidy.

[XWL61]

Does the concentration of the phosphoric acid solution make a significant difference? On eBay there are concentrations up to 80%.

Andy

[greendefender123]

I dont know. Mines 80% I water it down sometimes.

[panky]

I use Aquasteel, great stuff. Phosphoric acid based, and similar to the rust converters you get in very expensive little bottles from Halfords, but more concentrated an a lot cheaper. Do an eBay search and you will find it.

[Redmoggy]

Strip the panel to shiny new steel using something like a clean and strip disc. Wipe the panel down with a pre paint solvent and then apply a couple coats of an acid based etch primer.

Rod

[Malwar]

Thanks again for the advice, can anyone tell me if Etch primer is better than Epoxy primer?

Adam

[DAVIDMCCULLOUGH]

Has anyone ever tired molasses? I saw a clip on you tube of this and tried it on several small parts including a lowlight bumper that had laid outside for years. After a few weeks in the molasses I was even able to take the old chrome bolts out with a spanner! I currently have an old series 11 back wing in it along with a 'boot' for a Tri ang tricycle! Do be aware it doesnt like some other metals, the little boot handle on the boot has been eaten away by the mixture

It leaves any paint intact and the rust forms a sludge which you wash off and then need to paint immediatley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-gBAjEga1s

[greendefender123]

Look into epoxy primer once you've derusted it. Iv just bought a camper project that's been left outside for at least 2 years in just this primer and not rust has started and its still really good. Wish I'd known about this stuff for my moggie.