Retractable seatbelts

[don58van]

Hi all

Yes, another seatbelt thread. But read on, please. I have searched the previous threads and cannot find the definitive answer to my issue.

I have a 1970 two-door saloon with front seatbelts fitted when first sold in 1971. They were fitted as per the Leyland Workshop Manual. Of course in those days, they were all static.

I have three issues:
1) The sash belts slip off the shoulders because of the odd placement of the top mount (under the fixed rear quarterlight windows).
This will be familiar to many I am sure--I have seen it reported in previous threads many times.
2) The belts are tired now. Simple ageing and sun exposure means that they are well past their best. Sections have broken off the plastic buckle.
3) They are too short. Its not a problem for me and my wife, but others thick around the middle can't be legally carried in the front because the belts can't be fastened.

So I am determined to replace them.

Here is my question: ???????????????????????????????????
Will fitting retractable front seatbelts using the original (factory approved) mounting positions solve the falling off the shoulder problem? My wife and I are medium height. What has your experience been?
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I have conflicitng information on this.
My local restraint fitter suggested that the spring tension on a retractor belts would help to keep the belts on our shoulders.

On the other hand, the only directly relevant comment on this I has located on earlier threads is that the retractor tension doesn't help to keep the sash on the shoulder and worse, when it slips off, it winds up the slack and pulls the sash away from the body.

Advice on your experience would be greatly appreciated.

Don

[philthehill]

Don
The problem with fitting seat belts to the Minor is that the seat belt mountings are an after thought and at best a compromise.
Having fitted both static and retractable seat belts to Minors (and other vehicles when the seat belt requirement first came out) with and without incorporated seat belt mountings my opinion/experience is that the seat belt sash will slip off and that any tension will exacerbate the problem.
To overcome the problem way back a chrome part open clip was often fitted to the seat frame to stop the seat belt slipping down. The open part of the clip allowed the seat belt to be removed and stowed and the seat to be folded.
Whilst not the same the clip attached to the head rest in the link below is similar in principle to the clip I have fitted in the past. That clip was screwed to the seat frame in a position best suited to the user.
Unfortunately it is the nearest to the original clip I can find at the moment.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-MGF-MGTF- ... SwgQ9V1MlX
Phil

[don58van]

Hi Phil

Helpful, as always.

I hadn't come across the clip idea before. I will work on the concept to see where it takes me.

Regards
Don

[philthehill]

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0

There are a good selection to take ideas from in the above link.

[don58van]

Thank you again Phil

There is a wealth of design concepts on the link you provided. Now to choose which one will suit my needs best.

Don

[Dean]

Mine slips off too, but mine is a four door and retractable.

As well as Phil's excellent idea, have you tried raising the buckle as high as possible?

The further you point the buckle towards the roof of your Minor, it has the effect of lifting the seat belt higher across the torso.

This then naturally pulls the belt towards the neck (not across it of course). Nothing to lose by trying I guess.

But it will still slip off on occasions. Perhaps a sleeve with some velcro although any plans to drive topless would prove irritating.

[don58van]

Hi Dean
Thank you for your reply.

have you tried raising the buckle as high as possible?

The two-door has its own special problems with seat-belt mounting.
The problem with the two-door is that the upper B-pillar is very thin and feeble (unlike the four-door B-pillar). It is really too weak to use as a seat belt mount. Added to this, the inner B-pillar is a quarter-round profile that causes problems for the mounting hardware.
Here in Oz, some people modify the upper pillar. A right-angle steel reinforcement is welded to the inside from the waistline to the cant-rail. This has the added advantage that it provides a flat face for the mounting hardware. A barrel bolt is used for this fixing point so that the post does not crush the post.

This no doubt would be the ideal solution to my problem, but it involves substantial work on the car, including removing two windows. At this point, I would like to find a solution that is more easily implemented.

At this point, the seat belt guide is looking promising (thanks Phil). For what its worth Mazda MX5s and BMW Z3s use them (amongst many others).

Don

[don58van]

Hello again

The belts in two door Minors are unsatisfactory. I need to stress that it is not just inconvenience or discomfort that I am concerned about. If the sash of the seat belt does not fit over the shoulder--near but not touching the neck--it will not serve its function in a crash. As stated above, it tends to slip off.

So I have been doing my research on seat belt guides.

I have been looking for guides that can be used or adapted for the two door Minor with its standard seats.

I haven't had much success.

The primary impediment I have struck is this:
The seat back is substantially lower than my shoulder (I am average height). This means that almost all guides that are mounted to the top of the seat behind my right shoulder would divert the belt downward from my shoulder to the back of the seat, instead of crossing straight to my shoulder from the mounting point under the back window. This is unacceptable. In a crash any seat belt guide would break and allow slack in the belt, thus impairing its injury protection effectiveness.

I need to find a guide that will hold the belt in the correct position on my shoulder without significantly deflecting the path of the belt from the mounting point to my shoulder.

So, I am still researching solutions that will enhance (and certainly not impair) the effectiveness of the front belts. I have identified a couple of guide designs fitted in the factory by various manufacturers that have a chance of working in a Minor. Of course I will have to order them and offer them up to the seats and belts to properly evaluate them.

I would like to hear more of your ideas and experiences with front belts in two-door Minors, please. I will report back how I am going with solutions.

Don

[ManyMinors]

In my own 2door (a convertible) I have the original type Kangol static belts still fitted and generally prefer them to the inertia reel type. You have to wear them fairly tightly and then they are not so inclined to slip off your shoulder but I agree - the seatbelt mounting on a 2door is a compromise. The best fitting arrangement I have seen was on a convertible restored I believe by JLH restorations who had fabricated a new mounting from fairly thick steel plate and welded it into the corner between the B post and the waistrail - so that it was inside the rear quarter window and visible through it. Obviously this can only be carried out when the car is fairly much dismantled but I thought it a good way around the problem and if my car is ever in that state of dismemberment I would consider something similar. My saloon is a late model 4door and one big advantage is the location of the seatbelt mountings which were revised in the 4door and Traveller models around 1967 to give a better mounting position than the previous design which had one mounting rather too high and one which was too low - a hangover from the old trafficator mounting which meant that the central area of the B pillar was not available as a seatbelt mounting. As the trafficators were deleted in 1961, it seems it took BMC about 6 years to make this fairly important change ..........

[philthehill]

A seat belt guide as fitted to a Minor seat frame is not or should not be required to hold the belt in a crash its only purpose should be to stop the seat belt slipping off the shoulder.
To that end the seat belt guide should be raised as required to accommodate and suite the person sitting in the seat.
To get the guide at the right height - sit the person in the seat - fit the seat belt - tighten the seat belt so that the belt is in a straight line from the anchorage point to the shoulder and position the seat belt guide (use a mounting plate screwed to the seat frame if necessary) so that there is no deflection of the seat belt.
There may be a purpose made off the shelf guide bracket available but the principle of fitting will still be the same.
Keep every thing in line so keeping any possible stress off everything except the seat belt mountings.
Phil

[don58van]

Hello again all

Thank you Phil and ManyMinors

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that with the standard seats and mounting points it is not practical to use a seat belt guide to solve the slipping off the shoulder problem. Whatever arrangement is installed would have to not only hold the belt in the correct position, but it would have to be safe for rear passengers. So mounting 'ironmongery' on the top of the seat-back is out of the question.

I have investigated all sorts of crafty mounting of guides on flexible plastic arms and suchlike to try to solve the problem.

At this point I reiterate what I said earlier in this thread that relocating the sash mounting point to a reinforced B-pillar is the real fix, but that requires substantial bodywork including a fair bit of welding to a high standard.

My latest thinking for a solution that does not require substantial bodywork is to move the top sash mounting point further back along the moulding under the quarter window. Moving it back by a carefully judged amount would result in the belt coming over the front occupants' shoulders in the correct position. Try it yourself with your belt. Moving the mount back by only a few inches makes the required difference to the geometry.

I can only assume that BMC chose their mounting position to keep it close to the B-pillar to assure reasonable strength (and/or they might not have wanted the front belts to intrude into the rear passenger space).

To get the required strength with the rearward move of the mounting point I would install a large/long spreader plate behind the under-window moulding. These spreader plates are available in different shapes and sizes off-the-shelf here in Oz.

I am intending to buy new belts for my Minor anyway, but anyone who might want move the mounting point as I have described should note that most of the early belts fitted to Minors are too short to allow this mod.

Any thoughts?

Don