Stainless steel wing bolts
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- Minor Friendly
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Stainless steel wing bolts
Hi
Just wondering if anyone knows the thread of the front wing bolts? I am hoping to find ones in stainless to replace them. Does anyone know if these bolts are the same ones on the van cab to back??
I also need to know the what size the nuts are on the tie bar (bumper end)?<br><br>
Just wondering if anyone knows the thread of the front wing bolts? I am hoping to find ones in stainless to replace them. Does anyone know if these bolts are the same ones on the van cab to back??
I also need to know the what size the nuts are on the tie bar (bumper end)?<br><br>
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they are 5/16 BSF. BSF is getting rather hard to get (here in nz anyway) and its quite expensive to buy bolts and nuts etc. as far as i know they arent available in stainless steel but if you spend some time hunting then you might have some luck. if you cant find them then just get some original ones replated with zinc which will prevent them rusting
Fuel Injected Datsun a15 engine, 5 speed 60 series datsun gearbox
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Dont use stainless steel bolts!, the bolts will be fine but the captive nuts and the car body itself will become a sacrificial anode and will corrode much worse than if you used steel or zinc plated bolts. Just use zinc plated bolts, copper slip the threads, paint well and waxoyl the bolts and captives from both sides to prevent corrosion.
Cheers John - all comments IMHO
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bolts
Agreed Chicken John.....paint the captive nuts and each bolt as you refit it with Waxoyl. I have just removed a fibreglass wing after 12 years and it undid as though it was fitted yesterday. Paint ALL suitable bolts/nuts
with Waxoyl as you reassemble the car especially the bumper bolts!
with Waxoyl as you reassemble the car especially the bumper bolts!
Willie
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I'd like more info about this please, things like timescale,, how bad an effect it really is and is stainless to mild steel as bad as other combinations, this can be a problem on boats but how much of one one a car, I have used stainless washers on mild steel bolts and wish to make an informed judgement. Is this more in theory than practice, has anyone here seen the effect for themselves?
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Well our Branch Chairman has used stainless bolts and washers on his concours Traveller wings for many years and says he wouldnt use anything else, with an application of copper grease of course.
Cheers
Kevin
Lovejoy 1968 Smoke Grey Traveller (gone to a new home after13 years)
Herts Branch Member
Moderator MMOC 44706
Kevin
Lovejoy 1968 Smoke Grey Traveller (gone to a new home after13 years)
Herts Branch Member
Moderator MMOC 44706
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Its a concours traveller so never sees winter salt or much rain. For a car thats used and gets wet the stainless will be a bad idea. Its called Bimetallic corrosion- look it up! its electrochemistry. Basically you will be turning your car body into the anode of a battery and it will corrode and start to dissolve as rust.Kevin wrote:Well our Branch Chairman has used stainless bolts and washers on his concours Traveller wings for many years and says he wouldnt use anything else, with an application of copper grease of course.
You can use stainless bolts in a large piece of ali for example, but stainless on a steel body will be the opposite of galvanising. The body of the car will rot and sacrificially protect the stainless bolts.
Cheers John - all comments IMHO
- Come to this years Kent branches Hop rally! http://www.kenthop.co.uk
(check out the East Kent branch website http://www.ekmm.co.uk )
- Come to this years Kent branches Hop rally! http://www.kenthop.co.uk
(check out the East Kent branch website http://www.ekmm.co.uk )
Still researching this issue, but found this which although pretty technical does describe stainless fixings very comprehensively.
There are several misconceptions about stainless steel bolts and other fasteners. This guide is intended to clear up some common misunderstandings, but in a format that that is short and simplified.
1. Stainless Steel is Stainless Steel.
Not at all true. Steel is an alloy of Iron and trace amounts of Carbon, with some other elements in the mix, too. Making stainless steel requires the addition of other alloying agents, among them are chromium, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, phosphorous, silicon, and/or sulfur. Depending on the amount of these and other elements, many different grades of stainless steel can be produced and there are several grades suitable for making bolts and other fasteners with. The most common stainless steel is some version of "18-8"--that is, using approximately 18% chromium and 8% nickel. Common grades of stainless steel are 410 (Also called C1), 302, 304 (302 and 304 are also called A2), 305, and 316 (Also called A4). ( a version of 316 with additional molybdenum is labeled "2343") I've listed those grades in bold ordered from lowest corrosion resistance to highest corrosion resistance. Of the boltmakng alloys listed above, 302, 304, 305 are all based on "18-8" stainless. Put another way: If you ask the seller what kind of stainless steel his products are made from, and he says "18-8" or "A2", he hasn't told you much because there are various versions of 18-8, and at least two versions of "A2" stainless steel. F593C is an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) specification for 304 stainless steel.
2. Stainless steel bolts are stronger than ordinary steel bolts
This is clearly not true for the majority of stainless steel bolts. Stainless steel in general has very little carbon, and because of that, most grades of stainless steel cannot be hardened by heat treatment. Stainless steel bolts are, in most cases, just slightly stronger than Grade 2 hardware store junk bolts, and in nearly all cases, significantly less than Grade 5. You do NOT want to use common-grade stainless fasteners in any application that would call for a hardened (Grade 5 or Grade 8, or stronger) fastener. ARP makes a fine line of stainless bolts that have a tensile strength of approximately 170,000 lbs per square inch. This is greater tensile strength than a typical Grade 8 fastener, but keep in mind that tensile strength is not the only measure of bolt quality/strength. Common grades of stainless steel may have reasonable tensile strength, but significantly less yield strength than a "regular" steel bolt--the stainless bolts are more "stretchy". Those ARP-made bolts are the ONLY stainless fasteners I'm aware of that are suitable for general use. There may be others--if you know of any, please let me know!
3. Stainless steel doesn't corrode
Stainless steel is more correctly called "corrosion resistant" steel. Some grades are more resistant to corrosion than others, and grades have been developed that are highly resistant to corrosion caused by specific uses: for example, 304 is subject to pitting when used in an environment heavy in chlorides, while 316 is less reactive to chloride.
4. Stainless Steel is not magnetic
Stainless in general tends to be LESS magnetic than "ordinary" steel, and some grades are non-magnetic. Stainless steel bolts can become slightly magnetic when processed by cold working. Even though the "raw material" going into the boltmaking machines is non-magnetic, the process of forming the head and threads may cause the bolts coming out of the machine to be somewhat magnetic.
5. Rolled threads are somehow "special".
It is absolutely true that rolled threads are better than cut threads in terms of strength and accuracy. But since NOBODY produces common-sized bolts by cutting the threads, it's kind of pointless to brag about rolled threads! In a production environment, it's actually cheaper to roll the threads rather than cut them, and it produces better results because the threads are "forged" and the grain of the metal is pressed into shape, while with cut threads the grain of the metal is disturbed by the cutting process. Huge diameter fasteners of low production volume, or "ready rod", long lengths of threaded rod, may--or may not--have cut threads. Still, ordinary-sized bolts will have rolled threads.
I received a communication of interest from eBay member alleygnat. In it, he told me:
"I would add one additional item to your discussion regarding rolled threads: Though it it correct that rolled threads are stronger due to the residual work left in them, residual stress can be relieved at prolonged exposure to elevated temperatures thus eliminating any benefit. However, more important to the topic is that threads with residual work (Rolled Threads) are far less corrosion resistant than cut threads. I've seen many a boat with rust running down the hull from bolts with oxidized threads with still bright heads."
I have not verified his claim that rolled threads are susceptible to corrosion more than cut threads.
Another issue with common grades of stainless steel is that the threads often seize ("gall") between the bolt and the nut. I suggest the use of an anti-seize compound, coupled to CAREFUL USE OF THE TORQUE WRENCH when tightening stainless steel. You MUST use a torque setting on the wrench suitable for the mechanical limits of the fastener, as adjusted for the reduced thread friction inherent when using a thread lubricant like anti-sieze compounds. As a rule of thumb, and unless the manufacturer says otherwise: Consider a stainless steel fastener to be capable of Grade 2 torque loads, and then adjust the torque DOWNWARD by 20% because of the lubricant properties of the anti-sieze.
Example: A common 304 (A2) 3/8-16 stainless bolt should accept the same torque as a 3/8-16 Grade 2 bolt--only about 20 ft/lbs. But since you've lubricated the threads with anti-seize compound, you'd reduce the torque by 20%, for a torque-wrench-setting of 16 ft/lbs. That is NOT VERY MUCH for a 3/8 bolt!!! There are stronger stainless bolts--some but not all 316 alloy bolts will take almost but not quite Grade 5 torque specs, but again you must adjust downward when you use anti-sieze. If you're used to working with hardened fasteners (Grade 5 and Grade you won't believe how little torque is the maximum acceptable amount.
Generally, a manufacturer will put a trade mark of some sort on the bolt head. For example, many stainless steel bolts have the initials "THE" in raised letters on the bolt head. The THE signifies the bolt was made by Tong Hwei Enterprises, somewhere in the Far East--most likely Taiwan, although THE has factories in China and Malaysia as well.
There are several misconceptions about stainless steel bolts and other fasteners. This guide is intended to clear up some common misunderstandings, but in a format that that is short and simplified.
1. Stainless Steel is Stainless Steel.
Not at all true. Steel is an alloy of Iron and trace amounts of Carbon, with some other elements in the mix, too. Making stainless steel requires the addition of other alloying agents, among them are chromium, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, phosphorous, silicon, and/or sulfur. Depending on the amount of these and other elements, many different grades of stainless steel can be produced and there are several grades suitable for making bolts and other fasteners with. The most common stainless steel is some version of "18-8"--that is, using approximately 18% chromium and 8% nickel. Common grades of stainless steel are 410 (Also called C1), 302, 304 (302 and 304 are also called A2), 305, and 316 (Also called A4). ( a version of 316 with additional molybdenum is labeled "2343") I've listed those grades in bold ordered from lowest corrosion resistance to highest corrosion resistance. Of the boltmakng alloys listed above, 302, 304, 305 are all based on "18-8" stainless. Put another way: If you ask the seller what kind of stainless steel his products are made from, and he says "18-8" or "A2", he hasn't told you much because there are various versions of 18-8, and at least two versions of "A2" stainless steel. F593C is an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) specification for 304 stainless steel.
2. Stainless steel bolts are stronger than ordinary steel bolts
This is clearly not true for the majority of stainless steel bolts. Stainless steel in general has very little carbon, and because of that, most grades of stainless steel cannot be hardened by heat treatment. Stainless steel bolts are, in most cases, just slightly stronger than Grade 2 hardware store junk bolts, and in nearly all cases, significantly less than Grade 5. You do NOT want to use common-grade stainless fasteners in any application that would call for a hardened (Grade 5 or Grade 8, or stronger) fastener. ARP makes a fine line of stainless bolts that have a tensile strength of approximately 170,000 lbs per square inch. This is greater tensile strength than a typical Grade 8 fastener, but keep in mind that tensile strength is not the only measure of bolt quality/strength. Common grades of stainless steel may have reasonable tensile strength, but significantly less yield strength than a "regular" steel bolt--the stainless bolts are more "stretchy". Those ARP-made bolts are the ONLY stainless fasteners I'm aware of that are suitable for general use. There may be others--if you know of any, please let me know!
3. Stainless steel doesn't corrode
Stainless steel is more correctly called "corrosion resistant" steel. Some grades are more resistant to corrosion than others, and grades have been developed that are highly resistant to corrosion caused by specific uses: for example, 304 is subject to pitting when used in an environment heavy in chlorides, while 316 is less reactive to chloride.
4. Stainless Steel is not magnetic
Stainless in general tends to be LESS magnetic than "ordinary" steel, and some grades are non-magnetic. Stainless steel bolts can become slightly magnetic when processed by cold working. Even though the "raw material" going into the boltmaking machines is non-magnetic, the process of forming the head and threads may cause the bolts coming out of the machine to be somewhat magnetic.
5. Rolled threads are somehow "special".
It is absolutely true that rolled threads are better than cut threads in terms of strength and accuracy. But since NOBODY produces common-sized bolts by cutting the threads, it's kind of pointless to brag about rolled threads! In a production environment, it's actually cheaper to roll the threads rather than cut them, and it produces better results because the threads are "forged" and the grain of the metal is pressed into shape, while with cut threads the grain of the metal is disturbed by the cutting process. Huge diameter fasteners of low production volume, or "ready rod", long lengths of threaded rod, may--or may not--have cut threads. Still, ordinary-sized bolts will have rolled threads.
I received a communication of interest from eBay member alleygnat. In it, he told me:
"I would add one additional item to your discussion regarding rolled threads: Though it it correct that rolled threads are stronger due to the residual work left in them, residual stress can be relieved at prolonged exposure to elevated temperatures thus eliminating any benefit. However, more important to the topic is that threads with residual work (Rolled Threads) are far less corrosion resistant than cut threads. I've seen many a boat with rust running down the hull from bolts with oxidized threads with still bright heads."
I have not verified his claim that rolled threads are susceptible to corrosion more than cut threads.
Another issue with common grades of stainless steel is that the threads often seize ("gall") between the bolt and the nut. I suggest the use of an anti-seize compound, coupled to CAREFUL USE OF THE TORQUE WRENCH when tightening stainless steel. You MUST use a torque setting on the wrench suitable for the mechanical limits of the fastener, as adjusted for the reduced thread friction inherent when using a thread lubricant like anti-sieze compounds. As a rule of thumb, and unless the manufacturer says otherwise: Consider a stainless steel fastener to be capable of Grade 2 torque loads, and then adjust the torque DOWNWARD by 20% because of the lubricant properties of the anti-sieze.
Example: A common 304 (A2) 3/8-16 stainless bolt should accept the same torque as a 3/8-16 Grade 2 bolt--only about 20 ft/lbs. But since you've lubricated the threads with anti-seize compound, you'd reduce the torque by 20%, for a torque-wrench-setting of 16 ft/lbs. That is NOT VERY MUCH for a 3/8 bolt!!! There are stronger stainless bolts--some but not all 316 alloy bolts will take almost but not quite Grade 5 torque specs, but again you must adjust downward when you use anti-sieze. If you're used to working with hardened fasteners (Grade 5 and Grade you won't believe how little torque is the maximum acceptable amount.
Generally, a manufacturer will put a trade mark of some sort on the bolt head. For example, many stainless steel bolts have the initials "THE" in raised letters on the bolt head. The THE signifies the bolt was made by Tong Hwei Enterprises, somewhere in the Far East--most likely Taiwan, although THE has factories in China and Malaysia as well.
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I hope "Judge" deducted an appropriate amount of points for each incorrect material bolt!PSL184 wrote:So if its a concours car with stainless fastners does this mean they used stainless fastners at the factory?
Cheers John - all comments IMHO
- Come to this years Kent branches Hop rally! http://www.kenthop.co.uk
(check out the East Kent branch website http://www.ekmm.co.uk )
- Come to this years Kent branches Hop rally! http://www.kenthop.co.uk
(check out the East Kent branch website http://www.ekmm.co.uk )
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