Wheel colour

For owners of Pandas and other ex-police minors

Moderator: Moderators

graham1957
Minor Fan
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:41 pm
MMOC Member: No

Wheel colour

Postby graham1957 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:12 pm

hello all, i have a ex met police minor saloon first registered 15/12/1970.it has black on yellow and black on white number plates,could these plates be original or should they be silver on black for this age of car??any comments please ,Carol
[sig]8872[/sig]

simmitc
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:43 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby simmitc » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:57 pm

Silver. Readily available in spray cans. Authentic BL paint colour is obtainable, but most silver paints will be close enough.

ManyMinors
Minor Legend
Posts: 1491
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:41 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Wheel colour

Postby ManyMinors » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:15 am

I agree, the wheels should be silver. Also, every "Panda" car I ever saw in period was fitted with the reflective type number plates as you describe. At the time, these would have had aluminium backing plates with plastic letters secured to them and NOT the flat acrylic plates supplied now :wink:
Panda cars were purchased to various slightly different specifications by the purchasing Police Authority so some differences did occur but I never saw any with the older style black number plates.
Reflective number plates were certainly available by 1967 and the majority of new cars were supplied with them fitted after that time.

geoberni
Minor Addict
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby geoberni » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:27 pm

ManyMinors wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:15 am
I agree, the wheels should be silver. Also, every "Panda" car I ever saw in period was fitted with the reflective type number plates as you describe. At the time, these would have had aluminium backing plates with plastic letters secured to them and NOT the flat acrylic plates supplied now :wink:
Panda cars were purchased to various slightly different specifications by the purchasing Police Authority so some differences did occur but I never saw any with the older style black number plates.
Reflective number plates were certainly available by 1967 and the majority of new cars were supplied with them fitted after that time.
As far as I'm aware, the reflective Plates only became available in 1969 (though perhaps it was as early as '67) and were certainly not mandated until Jan 73 for new vehicles, by an amendment to the 1971 Regulations Schedule 2 which only made provision for Reflective Plates, without giving them primacy.

Unfortunately, the earlier regs from the 1960s are not available on the online pages (unless for Northern Ireland for some reason).

It's quite hard to research now as the B&W plates can now be used under the rolling 40 year scheme...https://insidedvla.blog.gov.uk/2015/11/ ... er-plates/

So I would go with older pattern plates on anything pre 1970.
Basil the 1955 series II

Image

geoberni
Minor Addict
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby geoberni » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:32 pm

This Ruddy Forum is playing up yet again. The Edit Button is not available on a post made just moments ago!!!!!!!

Here's a photo of an E Reg BTP Panda, with B&W plates, so that's '67.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebo ... 2046062287
Basil the 1955 series II

Image

ManyMinors
Minor Legend
Posts: 1491
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:41 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Wheel colour

Postby ManyMinors » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:13 am

I think there is now a great deal of confusion between what was "available" and was was "mandatory" over a period of several years.
Certainly my memory of brand new cars in the late 1960s is that the majority were fitted with reflective plates which were an option. They later became mandatory in 1973. A little bit of research reveals that the subject of the new reflective plates was brought up in Parliament on 19th April 1967 when it was considered that they played an important part in making roads a little safer. Wikipedia state that "this type of reflective plate was permitted as an option from 1968".
The subject was raised on this forum in January 2010 and at least one member stated that he had bought his Minor new in 1968 with reflective plates fitted - as indeed did a friend of mine who still owns the car to this day. His is still equipped with the original "F" registration reflective plates which were made by "Hills".
I can remember going into the premises of Chas Wrights who were number plate manufacturers around this time and seeing the vast array of new number plate styles available (reflective AND black/white or black/silver). People purchasing a new car could choose which type of plate they wished to have fitted in just the same way as they could choose from a range of wing mirrors, radios, floor mats or seat covers etc. Those now restoring cars of the that period tend to prefer to discard reflective number plates and fit what they regard as "correct" black ones. It is a simply a choice - just as it was at the time. However, to answer the original question, I do think that the Police, with an eye to road safety and improved visibility would generally have fitted reflective plates once they became available.

geoberni
Minor Addict
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby geoberni » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:57 am

I totality agree that it's hard to establish exactly when they became 'allowed'; it's bugging me that I can't find the actual legislation which did that, because clearly there would have been earlier legislation that gave the specification as Black with Silver/White lettering. There must've been an amendment in the mid/late 60s, I just can't track it down.

However I think you're a little optimistic in this aspect:
ManyMinors wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:13 am
I do think that the Police, with an eye to road safety and improved visibility would generally have fitted reflective plates once they became available.
These are links to original Panda Car photos that I have found this morning, all F Reg so 1968, Norfolk, Kent, and East Riding Constabularies, all with B&W plates.
https://www.edp24.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.3 ... /image.jpg
https://www.imps4ever.info/misc/police- ... e-kent.jpg
https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/cult-class ... ollons.jpg

There are of course examples of reflective plates from the same year. :)

I think many Constabularies would have just taken them as they came without specifying the type of plate.
Some might have been more proactive and specified Reflective Plates, but even this Met Jag was on B&W plates:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebo ... 122435663/

As you say, it was simply a matter of choice until 1973. I suspect that 69/70 was perhaps the pivotal period when they became the majority of plates supplied.
Basil the 1955 series II

Image

geoberni
Minor Addict
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby geoberni » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:12 am

But to return to the original question, I think the only answer is that, due to it being bang slap in the middle of the either/or voluntary decision period, the best thing would be to ask the Met Historic Collection.
http://fomphc.com/heritage-centre/

They might have some specific photos that would give the answer.
Basil the 1955 series II

Image

ManyMinors
Minor Legend
Posts: 1491
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:41 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Wheel colour

Postby ManyMinors » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:25 am

If you search "Morris Minor Panda Cars" on google images, which after all is what this thread is about, there are many pictures. A few show whole fleets of Morris Minor Panda cars when new. These show them all fitted with reflective plates which ties in with my memory of that time. There are also many more recent photographs of "restored" Panda cars. Many of these cars are now fitted with number plates showing a black background. That doesn't convince me that this is period correct.

The photo in this thread of a Panda car with black plates is of an early 1967 car with an "E" registration. "E" registrations ran only from January 1967 to July 1967 so that car probably pre-dates the introduction of reflective plates. "F" registration suffixes were introduced in August 1967 and then ran for 12months until July 1968 - very possibly spanning the period when the reflective plates became legal to use. I would still suggest that once that law came in, Police Forces would generally be quick to adopt this and fit the new plates to their new cars. The pictures you have shown of other Police cars displaying black number plates probably pre-date the legislation.

geoberni
Minor Addict
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby geoberni » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:47 pm

ManyMinors wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:25 am
There are also many more recent photographs of "restored" Panda cars. Many of these cars are now fitted with number plates showing a black background. That doesn't convince me that this is period correct.
Which is exactly why I didn't link to any colour or very sharp B&W images as they could easily be more recent images and I share your scepticism over the originality.

If Graham really wants to know, I've already given a link to the Met Police Heritage Centre.

By the way, here's perhaps a unique image of 2 Northumbria Police Hillman Imps, both F Reg. I suspect it is an original image given the quality of it. It potentially supports your theory of F being the introduction year .... :D
https://www.flickr.com/photos/53225046@ ... otostream/
Basil the 1955 series II

Image

philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 6661
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby philthehill » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:09 pm



geoberni
Minor Addict
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:19 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Wheel colour

Postby geoberni » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:34 pm

Doing this thing to death, I've looked into the history of BS AU 145, the specification for Reflective Plates.

The earliest version I can find available is BS AU 145a:1972... but the Forward to that states that the original version of the BS was published in 1967.
BS145.JPG
Given the detail provided, I think it a reasonable assumption that the original standard was published in 67, the government allowed reflective plates from early 68; after a few years of trial use, they found out the major problems with the specification, revised the standard in '72 and that's why they became the legal requirement in Jan '73.

As the Northern Ireland Regulations were amended on 28 Feb 68 to allow Reflective Plates, I would assume a similar date for rest of UK.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisro/196 ... tents/made

There was a 'mainland' amendment to the 1964 Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations published in 1968, but it's not available online. :cry:

In the absence of any other available info at this time, I would say (until someone proves otherwise), that 1 March 1968 was almost certainly the initial legal use of Reflective Plates. Whether the materials were ready in the workshops to produce them on that day is an entirety different question.... :D :D
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Basil the 1955 series II

Image


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests