Well, the time is here that Maisie is having a rest for a few months, plus I have some jobs to do on her.
The main one is I want to pull the engine, strip and rebuild where required, I have no history on it so want to get it to a good point, if the odo is to be believed shes done 114,000.
It's not knackered by any sense, but I know the rocker shaft is well worn and the oil pressure is not quite as good as it could be.
Does anyone have any experience of using oil pumps supplied by ESM or Bull M, I know there's lots if copy parts around of questionable quality, and considering this pumps the engines life blood round I don't want failures taking the rest of the engine with it, same goes for bearing shells as i am sure at minimum there's a set of them required.
Experiences, advice and sources gratefully received on this one, not looking for cheap here, I want quality. Maisie is not a daily runner, only for local pottering, we have only done 900 miles since March, but turned plenty of heads, lots of waves, points and the start of some conversations.
Geoff
Oil pumps
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
114 k is a lot of miles - be interesting to see the pictures when you strip the engine !
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
It may well have had something done to it in the past, it's not using much oil and does not sound too bad, but I know there's some wear there. If I want to be really critical I think I can just detect a slight hint of big end rattle but not sure.
An unleaded head has been fitted, that's as much as I know for sure.
Stripping will reveal all I am sure, I will certainly take some pictures along the way.
First job is to get the engine out of the car........
An unleaded head has been fitted, that's as much as I know for sure.
Stripping will reveal all I am sure, I will certainly take some pictures along the way.
First job is to get the engine out of the car........
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
Well, finished the job today and pulled the engine out no drama, left the front panel in place, jiggled it from the box, spun it round and out she came.
It was an awful wet afternoon here so though I would start pulling it down, just to see what I have and to satisfy my curiosity.
Took the head off, the bores look amazing, there is a slight hint of a ridge at the tops, I can see hone marks down the bores, the bores measure as standard and the pistons stand witness to that, having no indications of oversize on them and saying MOWOG on them. Not what I was expecting to find, although she was going well and no blue smoke even on a thrashing.
There's plenty of gunge and grot inside, if work had been done I would have expected it to be much cleaner.
Other than the head off, sump off, backplate off and oil pump out that's all I have done. Back plate is going back on no so I can get the engine in my stand to do the crank and bottom end stuff.
Picture below of the bores, not the best and hard to see the hone marks.[frame]
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It was an awful wet afternoon here so though I would start pulling it down, just to see what I have and to satisfy my curiosity.
Took the head off, the bores look amazing, there is a slight hint of a ridge at the tops, I can see hone marks down the bores, the bores measure as standard and the pistons stand witness to that, having no indications of oversize on them and saying MOWOG on them. Not what I was expecting to find, although she was going well and no blue smoke even on a thrashing.
There's plenty of gunge and grot inside, if work had been done I would have expected it to be much cleaner.
Other than the head off, sump off, backplate off and oil pump out that's all I have done. Back plate is going back on no so I can get the engine in my stand to do the crank and bottom end stuff.
Picture below of the bores, not the best and hard to see the hone marks.[frame]
Don't bother with a 'stand' 
- just do it on the bench - MUCH easier! All you need to do initially is release the centre main - and one big-end alongside - and show us the shells. If you go on (and you probably will...) - you need the backplate OFF to look at the rear main ! let's see the inside of the oil pump!
- just do it on the bench - MUCH easier! All you need to do initially is release the centre main - and one big-end alongside - and show us the shells. If you go on (and you probably will...) - you need the backplate OFF to look at the rear main ! let's see the inside of the oil pump!-
biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
I will certainly be going on, it's coming apart into every piece it was made in, and if it needs it, then it will get it, it certainly deserves an overhaul, and I have the advantage of no hurry as its off the road for the winter. Lots of jobs I want to do on it, and if you cant be bothered to do a job properly then don't bother doing it.
It's a 5 lobe 'concentric' pump, if I get chance I will sort a picture later on.
Think someone put a new clutch plate in, but the release bearing and face in the cover are like a ploughed field, so I will probably put a new clutch in before it goes back.
The starters in pieces as well, the large heavy spring on the end is in two pieces, manged to find one of them.
It's a 5 lobe 'concentric' pump, if I get chance I will sort a picture later on.
Think someone put a new clutch plate in, but the release bearing and face in the cover are like a ploughed field, so I will probably put a new clutch in before it goes back.
The starters in pieces as well, the large heavy spring on the end is in two pieces, manged to find one of them.
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
Yes, that's what I thought, just odd that bores are in good shape, its not what I was expecting to find really, but they are what are, and its not heading off to the shop. A very very light hone down them and that will be it.
Some pics of the oil pump below, that is starting to look its age, running hot at idle it was doing about 15psi, and going along about 50 - 55 psi, and generally not running too bad. Rocker shaft is worn as is to be expected, hopefully just the shaft, some of the rockers are flopping about really well.
Won't get chance to do much this week now as I am away for work, and then have to go to Spain the following week for work, then I can get on with it.
Oil pump.....[frame]
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[frame]
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Some pics of the oil pump below, that is starting to look its age, running hot at idle it was doing about 15psi, and going along about 50 - 55 psi, and generally not running too bad. Rocker shaft is worn as is to be expected, hopefully just the shaft, some of the rockers are flopping about really well.
Won't get chance to do much this week now as I am away for work, and then have to go to Spain the following week for work, then I can get on with it.
Oil pump.....[frame]
[frame]
[frame]
Re: Oil pumps
Yes -I would change that - although have seen much worse coming out of a Mini! Check rockers by sliding them along the shaft to an 'unworn' section.
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
Well, done a bit more tonight, managed to get a couple of evenings in the workshop between being away.
Stripped the pistons out, there is definitely some wear on the crank pins, and the shells confirm it. It's not completely shot and fits the way it was running, slightly low oil pressure and a definite big end vibration once up to 50/60mph and light throttle.
I think its a reground crank heading in here.....[frame]
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Not got to the mains yet as I am waiting for large socket to turn up to get the pulley off, pistons are all good, new set of rings and they will be good to go.
Stripped the pistons out, there is definitely some wear on the crank pins, and the shells confirm it. It's not completely shot and fits the way it was running, slightly low oil pressure and a definite big end vibration once up to 50/60mph and light throttle.
I think its a reground crank heading in here.....[frame]
Not got to the mains yet as I am waiting for large socket to turn up to get the pulley off, pistons are all good, new set of rings and they will be good to go.
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MarkyB
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Re: Oil pumps
Is the oil filter all present and correct?
It looks like those shells have been replaced quite recently.
It looks like those shells have been replaced quite recently.
"Once you break something you will see how it was put together"
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
The oil filter was the original purolator one when i got the car, don't know if it was assembled correctly or not, I put a spin on one on.
I agree they look recent but nothing looked disturbed for a long time, I know the car only did 200miles in three years. If anything someone has probably stuck new shells in at some point and left it at that, definate scuff marks on the crank, almost like no oil.
For the cost of a crank and shells I am not messing about, rocker assy is shot as well. Rest of the engine is fine. Rebuild properly with new parts, oil pump etc etc and she will be good.
I agree they look recent but nothing looked disturbed for a long time, I know the car only did 200miles in three years. If anything someone has probably stuck new shells in at some point and left it at that, definate scuff marks on the crank, almost like no oil.
For the cost of a crank and shells I am not messing about, rocker assy is shot as well. Rest of the engine is fine. Rebuild properly with new parts, oil pump etc etc and she will be good.
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
Spent a couple of hours this afternoon pulling the rest of the engine down.
I can't get it into any more pieces now, in general its not too bad really, and as I suspected the problems with the crank and shells. The mains are well past their best.
I now know why the bores are original size, as liners have been fitted, once i got into the bottom of the block i can see the edge of them, so that explains that. What I suspect is that someone has had the minimum job done to keep it going and not put a new crank in.
The camshaft plate was interesting, it's probably worn about half way through, so some end float on the cam going on, which is in good order as are the tappets.
So I need new cranks and shells, rocker assy, oil pump and some general rebuild parts.As I can see hone marks in the bores, do I leave the rings alone, it was pulling like a train and burning no oil so would rings be pointless ?.
These are the main shells...[frame]
[/frame]
I can't get it into any more pieces now, in general its not too bad really, and as I suspected the problems with the crank and shells. The mains are well past their best.
I now know why the bores are original size, as liners have been fitted, once i got into the bottom of the block i can see the edge of them, so that explains that. What I suspect is that someone has had the minimum job done to keep it going and not put a new crank in.
The camshaft plate was interesting, it's probably worn about half way through, so some end float on the cam going on, which is in good order as are the tappets.
So I need new cranks and shells, rocker assy, oil pump and some general rebuild parts.As I can see hone marks in the bores, do I leave the rings alone, it was pulling like a train and burning no oil so would rings be pointless ?.
These are the main shells...[frame]
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MarkyB
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Re: Oil pumps
Don't forget the thrust washers while you are in there.
"Once you break something you will see how it was put together"
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
Not forgotten, I have a spreadsheet with all the rebuild parts on so nothing gets over looked.
Trying to find a local firm who can dip clean the block for me, that way I know its clean, better than the preliminary clean I have done to it to get rid of the worst. Last time I did this I worked in a factory that made engines, albeit very large ones, but my home jobs used to go through the cleaning shop for a couple of beers. Nothing like a hot tric tank for dissolving old oil.
Trying to find a local firm who can dip clean the block for me, that way I know its clean, better than the preliminary clean I have done to it to get rid of the worst. Last time I did this I worked in a factory that made engines, albeit very large ones, but my home jobs used to go through the cleaning shop for a couple of beers. Nothing like a hot tric tank for dissolving old oil.
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katy
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Re: Oil pumps
It sounds like you have already pulled the pistons, therefore you should replace the rings and give the cylinders a very light honing or hand emery scuffing. If the pistons are still in the cylinders I would leave them alone.As I can see hone marks in the bores, do I leave the rings alone, it was pulling like a train and burning no oil so would rings be pointless ?.
Talk slow, think fast!
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
The pistons are out, and look in very good shape, new set of rings and a very quick run up and down with the honing tool.
I am getting the picture now of whats been done to it, the crank has standard mains and one regrind on the pins. Explains the very tired looking main shells, and the more recently replaced big end shells. The main journals on the cranks are fine, new shells and it would be happy. The crankpins are however not very good, one has a good score that's beyond polishing. I think the engines had half a job done to it, perhaps not very well and looks like its been started dry without getting some oil round first.
Should tappets be replaced together, I have three that are bad, one with an indent of the cam, and two that look to be breaking up on the surface. The rest look perfect. Never had any dealings with them before, they have always cleaned up and gone back.
I am getting the picture now of whats been done to it, the crank has standard mains and one regrind on the pins. Explains the very tired looking main shells, and the more recently replaced big end shells. The main journals on the cranks are fine, new shells and it would be happy. The crankpins are however not very good, one has a good score that's beyond polishing. I think the engines had half a job done to it, perhaps not very well and looks like its been started dry without getting some oil round first.
Should tappets be replaced together, I have three that are bad, one with an indent of the cam, and two that look to be breaking up on the surface. The rest look perfect. Never had any dealings with them before, they have always cleaned up and gone back.
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katy
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Re: Oil pumps
I would replace all the tappets. If one or more are starting to fail, IMHO the others would be suspect too.
Talk slow, think fast!
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philthehill
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Re: Oil pumps
There should be no pitting (or hollowing/indentation) of the seat of the cam follower (tappet) where it presses on the cam lobe.
Once the seat of the cam follower has gone it will cause rapid wear not only to the cam follower but also the cam.
So to answer your question all 8 cam followers should be replaced.
You should NOT fit S/H cam followers from another engine. Cam followers wear to each individual cam lobe. Putting them to another cam lobe will also lead to rapid cam and cam follower wear.
At £1.95 for a cam follower ESM Pt No: 10M160 there is no need to spoil the ship for a half-penny's worth of tar.
You CAN put new cam followers to a used (non worn out) cam but not fit S/H cam followers to a new cam.
Always best to fit new cam followers to a new cam.
Once the seat of the cam follower has gone it will cause rapid wear not only to the cam follower but also the cam.
So to answer your question all 8 cam followers should be replaced.
You should NOT fit S/H cam followers from another engine. Cam followers wear to each individual cam lobe. Putting them to another cam lobe will also lead to rapid cam and cam follower wear.
At £1.95 for a cam follower ESM Pt No: 10M160 there is no need to spoil the ship for a half-penny's worth of tar.
You CAN put new cam followers to a used (non worn out) cam but not fit S/H cam followers to a new cam.
Always best to fit new cam followers to a new cam.
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biomed32uk
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Re: Oil pumps
Tanks Phil - Yes, one has a small hollow in, cam is fine thankfully and two are starting to show signs of pitting in the surface. Assuming they are all the same age then as you rightly say for the cost of it a new set should go in. Not sure why only one should show hollowing, certainly going to start upsetting the valve timing on that one, which would be the exhaust on No1.
I did ask the guy selling those cranks on ebay for some more pictures, failed to come back to me as yet.
The gearbox is also coming out as the bearings are showing signs of roughness, at least the input one is, I will take the opportunity to put the bigger bolts in for the gearbox cable bracket that you provided me back in the summer.
I did ask the guy selling those cranks on ebay for some more pictures, failed to come back to me as yet.
The gearbox is also coming out as the bearings are showing signs of roughness, at least the input one is, I will take the opportunity to put the bigger bolts in for the gearbox cable bracket that you provided me back in the summer.