Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

If you need something, try asking for it here - you never know

Moderator: Moderators

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:43 am

Hi everyone

I am close to completing this very early 1949 Minor Tourer and i will update my other thread with some photos. But my one sticking point is finding a window winder. I have looked extensively in Australia and the most common comment is to tell me that this isn't a Morris Minor winder. One very experienced Morris Minor specialist former business owner looked at it and said he had never seen one but when looking at my door frame said he had never seen that either and agreed it must be correct. There is so much that is unique to these early cars and I am trying my hardest to keep this very original car correct and not turn it into some sort of hybrid that confuses people into the future.

I have a 1950 parts car and it is quite different. The easy way to spot difference is that the later more common ones mount on an angle and have a semi-circle that is geared. This early one has a full circle with the gear being smaller. The internal winders are longer to compensate for this but i have those. And the side doesn't matter, I can tell from the one i have that they are identical and the spring can be fitted in either direction.

For the sceptics (or maybe that is just my locals!), I have added a pic of my internal door frame that shows the different mounting points up higher and horizontal. If all else fails i am sure i can botch the frame or fit later doors but seems a shame to do that. Crossing my fingers that somewhere in the world there is one of these.

Any contacts or tips greatly appreciated too.
DSCN2400.JPG
DSCN2400.JPG (128.55 KiB) Viewed 1027 times
DSCN2399.JPG
DSCN2399.JPG (1.15 MiB) Viewed 1027 times
DSCN2398.JPG
DSCN2398.JPG (1.04 MiB) Viewed 1027 times
DSCN2411.JPG
DSCN2411.JPG (1.18 MiB) Viewed 1027 times

blodween
Minor Friendly
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:47 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby blodween » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:04 pm

Craig
Ref PM.
Now I understand.
:oops:

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:28 pm

Thanks Dave - Yes have tried all the major suppliers. There are a lot of things on these early cars that the suppliers don't have - just not the demand there and i think half the time its hard for anybody to work out what is what. This car, or at least the pile of bits I got seem to be very original. Even the starter and genny have '48 dates on them. But just missing this winder. But any more suggestions who to ask is greatly appreciated.

Murrayminor
Minor Friendly
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:47 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby Murrayminor » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:23 pm

Have you considered having a "new" one made?
I'm not for one moment saying I could make it but there are gifted people out there with access to very clever computer based cutting machines who could possibly recreate it.
Proud owner of my first Morris Minor

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:25 am

That's a good point. I will look at the more modern ones i have and see if there are any common parts, or another car for that matter, and then see if i can get other bits laser cut etc. I have a 1924 Amilcar and used to the process or remaking parts and usually put the call out to other owners to offset costs if they want one too. Strangely though I think these really early Minors are much rarer than Amilcars!

smithskids
Minor Addict
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:32 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby smithskids » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:27 pm

My 51 MM is the same fitting as my morris 8 and 63 pickup. the quadrant on some have a smaller arc but even the Morris 8 pitch and screws are the same size. The arm length differs as well. I'm sure you could adapt a modern one.

philthehill
Minor Maniac
Posts: 5895
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:05 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby philthehill » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:54 pm

There were a whole gaggle of Amilcar's (including some racing ones with open wheels) passing through the village a few weeks ago and not one had a long straggly scarf hanging down around the rear wheel. :wink:


craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:25 am

Good to hear Amilcars out there being used.... but important to learn from Isadora's mistakes!

Thanks Smithskids - it doesn't surprise me your '51 is the same as the later, as i said my 1950 is too. The really disappointing bit though is that it sounds like a Morris 8 also had a similar 'quadrant'. The key to fitting though is really differences in the distance from the winder shaft to the spring, which needs the dent in the door to accomodate it so it can turn. The key with Morris 8 is if it had a quadrant similarly small to the circle. It sounds like that full circle was tried on the new Minor but then shortly after changed to what they knew.

And the pattern for mounting screws is the same, and although the actual shaft for the handle is in a different position, I could redrill holes to make that fit - need to keep the winder handle in the same position for the already retrimmed door inners. Apart from costs, which all becomes a balance here, the reupholstery work was done maybe 20 years ago and i con't know if I could replicate the vinyl used.... better to keep looking for a winder still I think. The main problem is the spring itself is in a different position to the winder handle shaft, so the indentation in the frame to accommodate the spring turning doesnt' fit (because of the bigger diameter of the quadrant rather than the small circle sprocket). So to make one of the others fit will entail dent knocking the door frame inner panel to allow for that - and not easy in that cramped space. I thought of cutting and shutting a mechanism but it can't happen without making a new door trim for that changed distance. The arm is a different length but the could be cut and shut or a new hole drilled if i can get the riveted end out and re-rivet.

So no easy solutions i can see yet.

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:13 am

Picture worth a thousand words..... this is the two winders lined up next to a ruler. If you look closely you can see how 1. the shaft for winder not sitting in same position within bolts 2. different length but most important 3. Big difference between shaft position and the spring assembly that needs room to move - and looking back at the inner door photo you can imagine how that fits snugly in the pressing... and it would be great not to modify and belt hell out of the door etc. - I figure there must be one out there somewhere, just not with the 20 or so individuals I have been asking or have seen this message!
DSCN2412.JPG
DSCN2412.JPG (1.03 MiB) Viewed 855 times
DSCN2413.JPG
DSCN2413.JPG (1.07 MiB) Viewed 855 times

SteveClem
Minor Legend
Posts: 1624
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:37 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby SteveClem » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:32 pm

Wow, very different. I had no idea!

taupe
Minor Addict
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:20 pm
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby taupe » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:04 pm

These farina ones look very similar I'm sure they could be adapted

https://www.bmcfarina.com/contents/en-u ... ar-RH.html

Taupe

smithskids
Minor Addict
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:32 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby smithskids » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:47 pm

Great pictures, yes I wonder why they did an odd one for the earlier minor,the Austin one looks pretty good though. Would a slightly later door fit?

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:29 pm

Gosh thanks for the farina tip! My first car a Series V oxford and along the way 2 x A60 and 2 x Mk 4 Magnettes...... and never noticed the similarity in window winders. From memory the drivers door had higher gearing on the winder than the other doors. Now to track down a farina - can't remember last time i saw one!

And yes i have a later door that would fit...... but not rust and dent free and painted perfectly to match the rest of the car. And matching paint doesn't seem so easy..... they missed painting the bumper panels so took them to have minor dent knocking, along with a friends Fiat Topolino headlights, and also the dash panels colour matched and painted...... total cost AU$1050!

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:19 am

Funny how cars seem to disappear - one minute farinas everywhere and now they have all gone! Must be some hidden somewhere and will keep searching. I noticed looking at the picture I would need to pull that arm off and reposition it so the end of the rod is in the middle. I think the shaft for the winder looks a bit shorter but the one on the other minor one looks to have that same part but It does look like I could hybridise something.

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:37 am

Eventually tracked down a Farina..... who would have thought! Taupe wins the prize. It was an old wrecked car and only one winder left in it - working away blind with the fear of redback spiders in the door... got it out.... lined it up and all the dimensions are identical. It needs the short farina arm removed and the later arm I can use to weld in its place and to the other side. Then the shaft of the winder is for a different attachment but that looks like the tabs can be bent and the newer minor one fitted..... can finally get the other door frame on - hooray!
DSCN2430.JPG
DSCN2430.JPG (1.12 MiB) Viewed 419 times
DSCN2431.JPG
DSCN2431.JPG (1.06 MiB) Viewed 419 times
DSCN2432.JPG
DSCN2432.JPG (1.12 MiB) Viewed 419 times

RobThomas
Minor Legend
Posts: 2459
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 10:34 am
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby RobThomas » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:55 am

Craig, is this close enough to start from?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rear-Window- ... rk:10:pf:0

Edit. Just realised you've solved the problem already.
Cardiff, UK

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:46 pm

Thanks Rob....... that's a better price than the $100 I paid to the wrecker in Adelaide even after i pulled it off the car... but i think he could see the glint in my eye and that after all this i would not be leaving his yard without it!

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:10 am

Nearly there! It was fairly simple to hybridise these as per photo ....... but now a new question! Is anyone familiar with the purpose of the spring that is around the winder handle shaft and inside that 'metal cage' that holds the shaft? At first I thought it was to go either side of the tab connected to the gear, but the marks on that tab would suggest otherwise. Is it simply to provide resistance so the window doesn't wobble itself down? It certainly gives lots of resistance to turning but i have tried to hook the taps on the spring around that tab on the gear and it seems no way that will work. Desperate to get it together now!! Any further help greatly appreciated.

And for anyone looking at doing this, I just ground the ends of the rivets holding the short farina arm and it pulled easily off, leaving the rivets sitting there. Then from the common minor winder, I cut to the same length as the old one, just behind the central rivet and again ground off the flattened part of the rivet and that came off easily. Quick clean up to shape the end. Vernier to measure spacing for new hole to drill for other rivet. Bit of a knock with the hammer to seat it all back on and a dab of mig weld to hold those rivets. The arm is about 5mm longer to the knob that goes in the slider, but i don't think that will matter - time will tell once i sort this winder handle shaft.
DSCN2683[1].JPG
welded arm
DSCN2683[1].JPG (1.11 MiB) Viewed 311 times
DSCN2680[1].JPG
one angle of that winder handle shaft and spring
DSCN2680[1].JPG (1.06 MiB) Viewed 311 times
DSCN2681[1].JPG
another angle of that shaft
DSCN2681[1].JPG (1.11 MiB) Viewed 311 times

craigb
Minor Friendly
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 11:58 am
MMOC Member: No

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby craigb » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:22 am

I've had a response elsewhere that the spring is all about stopping the window winding itself down under gravity. So I think I would put that all together now.

myoldjalopy
Minor Addict
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:32 pm
MMOC Member: Yes

Re: Desperately seeking early Minor window winder

Postby myoldjalopy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:30 pm

Redback spiders! That's a novel way of guarding the premises! They usually use a mangy old rabid dog over here in UK scrappies :lol:
Well done finding that elusive part though.....


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest