Rolling tax exemption

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Blaketon
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Rolling tax exemption

Postby Blaketon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:15 pm

I think I am right in saying that the legislation, that will allow 1978 vehicles (Like my mother's MGB GT) free road tax, from this April, was passed in April 2018 and that this April, the law will be passed, that will allow the same for 1979 vehicles in 2020.

I have tried to confirm this with FBHVC and DVLA but neither can answer the question and both simply advise me what I already know. I am reminded of my off topic post on flowcharts :roll: .

When I think back to 1997, when Messr BLiar and Brown came to power, rolling tax exemption was frozen as at 31 12 1972. If the rolling process was the same then (Only based on 25 years), in April 1997, John Major's government would have passed the law, covering 1972 vehicles, which took effect in April 1998. In 1998, the new government didn't extend this.

I don't wish to start a political debate but based on dealings I had with the government between 1998 and about 2007, it was clear that the change in policy resulted because someone (Probably Gordon Brown) simply didn't approve of historic vehicles (If you unpicked and disproved their reasons, rather than give way, they concocted another, which you then had to unpick). I have a feeling that Mrs May might not last out the year as Prime Minister and since I have a 1979 car, I was just trying to establish when the law, bringing it in from the cold, will be passed (Should whoever takes over also dislike historic vehicles). It's not simply about the issue of paying road tax. Officially my 1979 MG Midget is still an old banger and when it becomes "Historic", there are some legal benefits. For example (Not that it will affect me) it would not be subject to the London pollution charges.

SteveClem
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby SteveClem » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:35 pm

My understanding is that there is a rolling 40 year exemption now. A lot to be said for getting an MOT regardless though.

ianmack
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby ianmack » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:21 am

I think the exemption rolls automatically and a change in the law each year is not required to move it.

Whether May or her successor like old motors or not either way they will have more pressing things to worry about for the foreseeable future.

Blaketon
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Blaketon » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:06 am

You are spot on. The DVLA couldn't answer the point, so I contacted the Department for Transport, who arranged for HM Treasury to reply. They said :-

Thank you for your correspondence dated 19 February to the Department for Transport (DfT) about Vehicle Excise Duty (VED). Your letter has been passed to the Treasury. As it is not practical for Ministers to respond personally to all the correspondence they receive, I have been asked to reply.

The historic car industry employs around 28,000 people in the UK and the government wished to recognise the contribution made by this sector. Therefore, Finance Bill 2014 legislated to extend the VED exemption to vehicles constructed 40 or more years ago on an automatic rolling basis.

From 1 April each year, vehicles constructed more than 40 years before the 1 January of that year, are automatically exempt from paying VED. Currently, this means that only vehicles constructed before 1 January 1978 are exempt from VED. From 1 April 2019, vehicles constructed before 1 January 1979 will also automatically become exempt from VED. This does not require further legislation.

With regard to the age of vehicle that qualifies for the exemption, the government set 40 years as being a fair cut-off to distinguish between classic cars that are cherished for their historic value and old cars which may be used as a main form of transport.

Thank you for taking the time to get in contact.


As you say, they all have other things on their minds now (It does appear that they used to be indecisive, now they're not sure) and you wonder whether any of the parties can sort out the mess. I am not going to get involved in that but I have tried (Several times, even via my own sitting Labour MP) to ascertain the attitude of the main opposition party to road tax exemption but they maintain an ominous silence. It's not so much the issue of the road tax exemption (Though I would say that the present system does appear to penalise and regard as bangers, those older cars that are not old enough to come within the exemption from duty), rather an indication of attitude to historic vehicles. In 1997, they simply froze the rolling system. I hope that 40 years rolling will appear less "Offensive" to them than 25. Having had dealings with them, at various times, since 1997, I came to the conclusion that it was a case of whim and of seeing historic vehicle owners more useful as scapegoats, than potential voters. By being "Hard" on us, they could be seen to be being caring for the environment (Though this did contradict the Green Apple Award given to Charles Wares, not to mention fact), without upsetting too many people. In terms of giving money away, the numbers of modern cars getting low or zero rates of road tax, represented a much bigger giveaway, than the financial loss cited, after 1997, as the reason for freezing road tax exemption (It was later that the "Environment" became the excuse...I mean reason).

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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby NOEL » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:44 pm

An interesting discussion , I thought the exemption was a rolling 40 years but thanks for clarifying. A further point regarding modern cars and lower taxation bands,i I have a Fiat Panda as well as my moggie for day to day driving, i didn't set out to get the most lowest emissions based model but it so happens Fiat produced an ECO model and this one was what was available in my price range and location.Low-emissions versions of Fiat's popular city car, with CO 2 emissions of 119 g/km thanks to the use of low rolling resistance tyres and low viscosity engine oil apparently. To me it is a slightly stripped down version using the same sort of FIRE engine used in Fiats from 2004-2010 yet,these are charged at £140 per year as opposed to mine at £30. there is nothing to stop me or others changing the tyres to a different rubber compound and equally many owners use synthetic 10/40 W rather than 5/40 W oil. This to me shows a lack of clarity of thinking typical of many organisations not just government. I think that the exemption to road tax for cars 40 years and older is a fair thing, most will be limited in use and it keeps classics on the road and preserves jobs with suppliers, i still personally am not so convinced about the MOT exemption.

Blaketon
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Blaketon » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:35 pm

The MOT issue is in our own hands. If we abuse it, it will be to our detriment. It will only take one or two fools to ruin it for all. There is a tendency for people to judge things by their own standards and since most people have only ever experienced old cars, in the form of old old bangers, they have a tendency to assume any old cars are old bangers. For this reason alone, we must not abuse the trust that has been shown us.

I am not confident, despite the apparently good results with the pre 1960 vehicles, that there will be no mishaps. For some reason, I was asked to take part in the consultation over MOT exemption and my recommendation was to base it on mileage, rather than the calender. I suggested every 1000 miles or three years, whichever came sooner (Perhaps 2 or 3000 might have been better but my cars often don't do more than say 500 a year, so that was me judging things by my own standards). In the event, that is what I will do myself but at least I have some flexibility, so if we have a spell of wet weather, I can wait until it clears and not have an expired MOT situation. I have three cars and so it should work out at one MOT a year.

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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby King Kenny » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:53 pm

Vehicle excise duty should have been added to the fuel years ago. It is the only fair way of dealing with it. The more you use the roads the more tax you pay and nobody can avoid paying. That's the way it is done here in France and petrol prices are similar to the UK's.

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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Blaketon » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:16 pm

King Kenny wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:53 pm
Vehicle excise duty should have been added to the fuel years ago. It is the only fair way of dealing with it. The more you use the roads the more tax you pay and nobody can avoid paying. That's the way it is done here in France and petrol prices are similar to the UK's.
I would agree but whilst road tax is paid separately, I feel the 40 year exemption is reasonable. I also feel that if vehicles are recognised as "Historic", it offers some protection against anti banger legislation (Such as the London emission fees, from which historics are exempt). There were plans to put road tax on to fuel here but Mr Callaghan lost the election and it was forgotten. During my various bits of correspondence with the Labour government, of 1997 - 2010, I suggested it be revisited but they cited the loss of the tax disc as making it difficult to spot uninsured/MOTless vehicles. It's been overcome!! At the time, I suggested an MOT disc and suggested that in order to get an MOT, you would have to produce the insurance certificate.

SteveClem
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby SteveClem » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:42 pm

Got my '67 Trav MOT'd last week. No advisories, so I must be doing something right...

Blaketon
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Blaketon » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:50 pm

Had a case of memory fade. My mother's MGB GT has just come in from the cold from 1st April and when I tried to tax it online, they were asking for money.

The DVLA have advised me that we need to alter section 7 of the log book to "Historic" and take it to the Post Office, where we can then get the first free tax. From then on, it can be done online. My MG V8 came in from the cold in 2015 and now I think of it, I did that in the Post Office the first time but it had slipped my mind. If Mrs May or one of her gang can hold on for another year, my MG Midget will then have it's turn, so hopefully I should remember a year down the line. Ironically the car we have had longest (35 years) is the last to get free tax.
Last edited by Blaketon on Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nickol
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Nickol » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:16 pm

I read with growing envy "tax free historic vehicles"...no periodic testing...rolling Registration of the 40 year rule. :(

Each of my classic cars is taxed at €190 per year. The testing is every other year. To Register as an historic vehicle, especially with an imported car like mine are, costs Minimum €500.

At least our fuel is A bit cheaper.....at the Moment.
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Blaketon
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Blaketon » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:40 pm

If you were to spend your 500 Euros, what concessions would you get for that?

The MOT system was first trialed with pre 1960 cars and when (Apparently) this didn't result in an increase in accidents, it was extended to 40 year old vehicles.

The tax concession began back in the 1990s but then it was 25 years rolling. Then, after the 1997 General election, it was frozen at 31 12 1972 (The Brownline) and it stayed that way until 2014 and it has rolled forward since. It's not just free tax; by being classed a historic, it should offer protection from anti banger legislation. If (Or perhaps when) we get another Labour government, it will be interesting to see whether the system is frozen again or whether 40 years won't be quite as offensive to them (If it is frozen again, I hope it is at least set at the end of old Y reg suffix numbers, which would at least be a tidy cut off, rather than a purely arbitrary one). If another Brownline comes into force (I have reason to believe it will), then it would become a sporadic rolling system, according to who is in power :roll: . My MG Midget has it's plug leads crossed that Mrs May or one of her chums hangs on in power for another year.

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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby King Kenny » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:50 pm

Blaketon wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:16 pm
I suggested it be revisited but they cited the loss of the tax disc as making it difficult to spot uninsured/MOTless vehicles. It's been overcome!! At the time, I suggested an MOT disc and suggested that in order to get an MOT, you would have to produce the insurance certificate.
Good suggestion. Here in France the road tax is on the fuel and a sticker is placed in the windscreen to show the car is insured and has a CT (MOT). CT every 5 years for cars over 30 years old.
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Nickol
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Nickol » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:49 pm

Good suggestion. Here in France the road tax is on the fuel and a sticker is placed in the windscreen to show the car is insured and has a CT (MOT).
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That must be very practical for those living near the German or swiss border, no car tax to pay and buying your fuel at German or Swiss Prices.
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philthehill
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby philthehill » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:38 pm

Makes me feel old when I can remember the introduction of the MOT in 1960.

I did my MOT examiners course at Hendon and with only the main items requiring to be checked. Happy days.


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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby geoberni » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:44 am

King Kenny wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:53 pm
Vehicle excise duty should have been added to the fuel years ago. It is the only fair way of dealing with it. The more you use the roads the more tax you pay and nobody can avoid paying. That's the way it is done here in France and petrol prices are similar to the UK's.
People still think it's to do with Road Use, hence the idea of being part of fuel cost is attractive, but VED is now based on the Emissions, hence the high number of categories and why some new vehicles VED is zero.
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Blaketon
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Re: Rolling tax exemption

Postby Blaketon » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:23 pm

If it was based on fuel, that would also have a bearing on emissions, as the more you'd use, the more you'd emit. I think that there is too much preoccupation with the exhaust and not enough on the whole picture. Electric cars may not have exhaust pipes but that doesn't mean they have no environmental impact; far from it. Even bicycles have a carbon footprint and given that cycling is now as much about fashion, as anything else, this will only make matters worse.


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