Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

for those with Series MM sidevalve cars produced between September 1948 and February 1953

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gtt1951
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Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Mon May 13, 2019 7:56 pm

Hello Folks,
Latest problem on UFN 456 is the pedal assembly. Having interrogated the forum, I found that a previous owner of this car had asked the same question
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=44449&p=428376&hil ... al#p428376
He either didn't progress the problem, or it has come back to haunt me.
Unlike the 2 sets of spare pedal assemblies I have, this one has a main shaft with a threaded end that goes through the cross member - just like the examples on the ESM and Charles Ware's websites.
It is a LHD pedal as it has the swivel pedal pad.
great play.jpg
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The play is so great, that I thought there was no connection through the chassis leg, so I ran a piece of card through this point and it didn't go past, so these is a shaft.
On the outside of the chassis leg, there is a washer and nut attached to a stub (shaft stub), which is also easily moveable by hand (the assembly can be moved up and down and left and right). I'm assuming that there is a nut under all that gunk.
Loose shaft end.jpg
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the bigger picture
IMG_20190512_171237.jpg
IMG_20190512_171237.jpg (1.99 MiB) Viewed 831 times
Anyone recently worked on such a pedal assembly?
Do I try to get the nut freed and then see if tightening it up clears the fault?

I will have to refill the engine oil (another topic about leaks) before I can drive the car into position on the tarmac drive for further work.

As always, very grateful for any suggestions, George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

Dean
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby Dean » Mon May 13, 2019 8:11 pm

I didn't need to do anything with my pedals, but my only suggestion would be to take them out. The brake pedal is a pig to connect and disconnect from the master cylinder from memory. To be honest you have nothing to lose by trying to nip up the nut on the chassis leg. But I 'm thinking if you take them out and bush it properly, you'll never need to look at it again. Sorry, that's all I can suggest. :(
My Minor:
A Clarendon Grey 1953 4 Door Series II.
MMOC - 66535



gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 16, 2019 12:27 am

Finally got the car onto the tarmac drive and jacked up on an axle stand
IMG_20190515_184036.jpg
IMG_20190515_184036.jpg (2.12 MiB) Viewed 791 times
Now I could have a go at the shaft end securing nut - turned out it was quite loose, like a lot of the fittings on this car - as were the wheel bolts!
end of shaft.jpg
end of shaft.jpg (425.55 KiB) Viewed 791 times
Got the nut off and the washer - which turned out to be the wrong type of washer
shaft washer.jpg
shaft washer.jpg (422.68 KiB) Viewed 791 times
Notice that there is no rectangular hole and this, I think, is the reason that the shaft was sloppy as the securing nut was then 3/8" inch out!
Also, the removed nut is castellated and I can't see any split-pin hole in the shaft - should there be?
shaft castellated nut.jpg
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And to add insult to injury, when I checked the master cylinder
IMG_20190515_183014.jpg
IMG_20190515_183014.jpg (2 MiB) Viewed 791 times
It was "dry"! So how did the brakes work when I manoeuvred the car off the garden and onto the drive?
I don't think I will be able to get this car ready for a local Classic Car Show on June 8th :(

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

philthehill
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby philthehill » Thu May 16, 2019 8:01 am

There appears to be no bush in the outer part of the chassis leg unless it is hidden under all that grease.

There should be bushes fitted in the chassis leg at both ends of the shaft.

They are available from ESM -
http://www.morrisminorspares.com/clutch ... ft-p829561

You may have to use a 5/8" reamer to allow the shaft to fit through the bushes.

The special washer (Pt No: ACA5228) should be fitted as it helps to alleviate turning pressures against the castellated nut which could lead to the split pin breaking and the nut coming undone.

The washer is available from ESM -
http://www.morrisminorspares.com/clutch ... 28-p829541

There should be a split pin fitted. You may find that the split pin hole in the shaft is blocked by a broken split pin.


gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:53 am

philthehill wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:01 am
There appears to be no bush in the outer part of the chassis leg unless it is hidden under all that grease.

There should be bushes fitted in the chassis leg at both ends of the shaft.

They are available from ESM -
http://www.morrisminorspares.com/clutch ... ft-p829561

You may have to use a 5/8" reamer to allow the shaft to fit through the bushes.
Thanks Phil, I don't think there is a bush as there is lots of lateral play in the shaft. I've already been looking at how to remove the pedal assembly and, whilst cleaning out the chassis leg, found a big spring connected to a loop in the chassis leg but the other end just loose.
Found it should be on the pin that holds the foot brake pedal to the master cylinder lever, except the pin has been put in from left to right, instead of right to left and the spring can't be hooked on the 2nd hole in the pin.
More work!

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:13 pm

I've taken the pedals out - the modified LHD clutch pedal and shaft came out easily but had an unusual stiff wire wrapped around the shaft,
IMG_20190516_122438.jpg
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IMG_20190516_122939.jpg
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IMG_20190516_123049.jpg
IMG_20190516_123049.jpg (2.03 MiB) Viewed 750 times
But what is this?
IMG_20190516_123252.jpg
IMG_20190516_123252.jpg (1.44 MiB) Viewed 750 times
the brake pedal was a bit more difficult - had to use bent-nose pliers to try to get the split pin out of the clevis pin
IMG_20190516_124018.jpg
IMG_20190516_124018.jpg (1.55 MiB) Viewed 750 times

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

gtt1951
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Posts: 822
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:24 pm

In the struggle to get the split-pin out, the whole pedal and push-rod came out!
IMG_20190516_124600.jpg
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The clevis pin wouldn't come out so, after using my trusty butane blow-lamp, it did come out
IMG_20190516_131436.jpg
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IMG_20190516_131736.jpg
IMG_20190516_131736.jpg (2.58 MiB) Viewed 749 times
The chassis leg does have a bush on the inside wall (nearest the gearbox), but no bush in the outside wall of the leg
IMG_20190516_130118.jpg
IMG_20190516_130118.jpg (1.1 MiB) Viewed 749 times
There is no split-pin hole to lock the castellated nut in place, as this is a modified LHD clutch pedal.
I'll either have to fit a lock-nut or get another clutch pedal from ESM
LHD clutch pedal shaft.jpg
LHD clutch pedal shaft.jpg (1.2 MiB) Viewed 749 times
Circled in yellow is the welded-on tail to attach the clutch actuating rod to (a bent piece of long studding) and the magenta circle shows the castellated nut, but no hole in the shaft.
In any case, looks like I'll have to replace the pushrod and yoke connector (comes with new clevis and split pins) from ESM.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

philthehill
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby philthehill » Thu May 16, 2019 6:09 pm

Thank you for the updates.
I would replace the clutch pedal with the correct item to save any more problems.

Fit a new bush or bushes to the chassis leg.


RobThomas
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby RobThomas » Thu May 16, 2019 6:21 pm

I wonder if the old bushes are still in the other chassis leg? :D
Cardiff, UK

gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:23 pm

RobThomas wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:21 pm
I wonder if the old bushes are still in the other chassis leg? :D
I'll have a look after I get back from a short break away.
[got a picture from when I first took off the tunnel cover - don't know how the clutch pedal would have come through the floor, unless another bit of metal has now been added
Left-hand chassiss leg.jpg
Left-hand chassiss leg.jpg (479.41 KiB) Viewed 727 times
Are these the same bushes that go inside the brake pedal?

George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

philthehill
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby philthehill » Thu May 16, 2019 10:10 pm

All four (two in the chassis leg and two in the brake pedal) bushes are the same Pt No: AAA1423.


gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:37 pm

philthehill wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:10 pm
All four (two in the chassis leg and two in the brake pedal) bushes are the same Pt No: AAA1423.
Ah, that is the Moss Europe part number, ESM and Bull Motif part number is COM104, Charles Ware is CBS131, GS Jones CBS148 (pair).
Thank you Phil for confirming that these are all the same bushes.
The 2 inside the brake pedal look OK, the Chassis leg, on the other hand, only seems to have one (nearside) and the left chassis leg looks to be devoid of both bushes.
I'll order replacement parts when I get back from my 3 day stay near Weymouth, followed by a 4 day stay at Redruth. Not much hope in getting this car to the local Classic Car display on June 8th then! :(
George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

philthehill
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby philthehill » Fri May 17, 2019 8:13 am

AAA1423 is the BMC part number as shown in the BMC parts list.

It is rare that the bushes fitted to the brake pedal wear - it is usually the shaft that wears.

The same with the bushes in the chassis rail - they rarely need replacing.


gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Fri May 17, 2019 12:05 pm

Phil,
Its interesting that Moss Europe use the BMC part numbers in their catalogue.
My chassis rail, unfortunately, does not have a bush in the outer wall and that is why the shaft was sloppy.
I'll be buying a replacement "new" clutch pedal from ESM when I get back next week.
Many thanks for your help,
George

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

philthehill
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby philthehill » Fri May 17, 2019 1:16 pm

When you have fitted the new bush there is a possibility that you may have to ream the bush to 5/8" for the shaft to fit through - though a 5/8" reamer will pass through a new unfitted bush so you may be lucky.

The bush is listed as out of stock at MOSS but available from ESM.


gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Sun May 19, 2019 6:06 pm

I've got a "parts required" spreadsheet and the bushes, new pedal, yoke and brake pedal cylinder actuating rod are in the list, from ESM, together with a few other items totalling in excess of the min (pre vat) price for free delivery. Will be placing the order when I get home on Thursday. Moss, unfortunately, have a lot of parts listed as NCA when they can be obtained from ESM and Charles Ware. Can't believe that the previous owner, after posting his self-same question in 2012, hadn't replaced the missing bush. I'm hoping I won't have to replace the Master Cylinder (I do have a large bore new spare).
George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

gtt1951
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:04 pm

I'm back! I ordered the bits I needed, which arrived on Saturday.
Today I resumed work on the car. Decided to do a test of the Master Brake Cylinder - topped it up, placed the original push-rod with yoke into it, did a bit of pumping, producing a few air bubbles and what looked like a wisp of smoke!
Pulled the rod out, only to find it covered in brake fluid - master cylinder needs to come out!
The only success I had was tapping in tthe bronze bush on to the outer wall of the chassis leg
This is it not all the way in yet
IMG_20190527_115914.jpg
IMG_20190527_115914.jpg (1019.36 KiB) Viewed 496 times
Looking at the replacement new Clutch Pedal (with shaft) and the modified LHD one, I will have to elongate the adjuster rod.
I'm now going back on the forum to look for how to get the torsion bar out of the way to remove the master cylinder fixing bolts.
Got the brake pipe and banjo off OK
IMG_20190527_112125.jpg
IMG_20190527_112125.jpg (1.14 MiB) Viewed 496 times
I do have a brand new spare Master Cylinder.
George.

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

philthehill
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby philthehill » Mon May 27, 2019 10:00 pm

To get the bush fully home - use a long enough bolt/nut with large washer on the outside and a suitable socket on the inside. Tighten the bolt/nut to pull the bush into the chassis leg. Tapping the bush may make it bell end and then you will need a 5/8" reamer.

If you can pull the torsion bar down enough it will allow the bolts to be withdrawn. Do not be tempted to re-fit the bolts from the centre of the car as the heads are shallow to clear the torsion bar.

If you can get the bar down sufficient you can wedge a block or socket between the bar and the floor which will allow the heads of the bolts to pass over the torsion bar.

There use to be a tool available or which you could make to press down the torsion bar - I have not seen one for some time - they may be available. Use the search facility for further information.


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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:20 pm

Phil, I used a bolt, large washers and a nut to pull the bronze bush it (then tried with the new Clutch pedal and it goes in, but a little "tight".
I have got the Master Cylinder out, having got info via another thread.
I used the suggestion of having a stout piece of wood resting on an axle stand at the inner end and a G-cramp at the torsion bar end.
I used a bar of steel that was bought to make up the missing support leg of my Mr Grumpy Roll-over Jig.
This is the leaking M/C (note that the floor had already been cut back to access the brake pipe union nut.
IMG_20190512_171015 - Copy.jpg
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Axle-stand, metal bar and G-cramp in place
IMG_20190601_112427.jpg
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Bolts removed
IMG_20190601_112737.jpg
IMG_20190601_112737.jpg (1.42 MiB) Viewed 401 times
Loads of debris inside chassis rail with old M/C removed (had to do a bit of cleaning and clearing the drainage hole)
IMG_20190601_113442.jpg
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New cylinder in place - I screwed in the banjo bolt whilst the cylinder was still loose.
IMG_20190601_120641.jpg
IMG_20190601_120641.jpg (3.08 MiB) Viewed 401 times

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.

gtt1951
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Posts: 822
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Re: Sloppy brake & clutch pedal shaft

Postby gtt1951 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:30 pm

I've now got another problem - I can't refit the brake pipe union into the Banjo Bolt retaining bolt
IMG_20190602_155221.jpg
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I've even tried with holding the pipe up with a pair of wire cutters (cross-jaw type to hold up the pipe).
I just cannot get the correct angle to screw the union nut back in :(
Unless someone has a better plan, the only thing I can think of is removing the M/C bolts (again), unscrew the banjo union bolt, fit the brake pipe union nut into the banjo through bolt (leaving it still loose to allow rotation without twisting the brake pipe),
then offer the through bolt back up to the loose M/C, re-bolt the M/C, tighten up the Banjo bolt, and then tighten the pipe union.
I've already got sore knees, a painful back and a crick in my neck, from the earlier work!

'51 Hi-light with Sidevalve 918 engine,
'55 4-dr with 803 engine,
'56 Traveller with 1098 engine.


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