dead moggy

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darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:32 pm

Ok got 2 30amp as couldn't get 35 at short notice but wait for it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, fuel pump clicking think it will start but got to fix in place as only wedged the fuses at the mo, looking good,

darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:42 pm

Well what do you know,,,,,,, its alive so a new regulator box was the right way to go even though they only act as a contact box, thank you lots I could kiss you all, ,,,,,,, but I wont, lol,

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:57 pm

I see things have advanced while I've been writing this, but I'll post it anyway....

Oh boy.....
This is getting a bit confusing for some people...... and some of that wiring is an abomination :o

Chasing around doing Voltage Checks doesn't help if you've no idea what you are doing, and by that I don't just mean darrenj but some of the advice that's being given.

I'm not going to write reams here trying to teach everyone how DC electrics works, but
darrenj wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:05 pm
With 1 terminal on A1 and the other terminal on A I get 12.4v, if I do the same to the coil it reads 0, this is with batt connected and key in on position,
If you are getting 12.4 volts across A/A1 it confirms that there is no internal connection between A/A1. Because if there were, you'd be getting nothing.

On the assumption that you are not using a voltmeter alone and it is a multimeter, switch it to Ohms and zero it with the leads connected together; then measure the Connection between A and A1. It should be practically nothing and certainly not large enough to change the reading you're getting. On a digital meter the reading will be about 0.1 ohm. If you've an analogue needle meeter, then it'll read 0 ohms depending on the scale it has and how good you are at reading it.
pgp001 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:25 pm

It sounds like you have a short to earth on the A1 side if you get 12V between A and A1.
NO NO NO, ...it means that there is no connection between A and A1 so you are reading the full battery voltage 'dropped' across the gap in the circuit. No different from sticking the meter across the battery terminals.

This image is the back of a typical Regulator so A/A1 are probable the far right connections.
http://www.2040-parts.com/_content/item ... 64/002.jpg
For these substantial strips of metal to burn out, I feel that if it were a wiring short then an examination of things like the spot lamp wiring would have seen some other signs of damage.. If the spots have their own inline fuse it would certainly have ruptured.
I strongly suspect that one of those rivets was a bit loose with age, and had been for some time, gently arcing with the massive available output of the 30-50amp Alternator, until switching on the Spots finally made it go 'stuff this' and burn out completely.

If all the damage found has been confined to the rear of the Regulator, and the lugs on the front are OK, then here's what I suggest JUST TO CHECK IT OUT.

In the absence of fuse wire get a couple of inches of normal domestic electric flex. Extract 2 or 3 strands of copper out of the flex, so you have effectively got a length of fuse wire. Wrap it around A and A1 such that only a single section of it bridges the 2 terminals, i.e. don't wrap it around like a figure 8 so that there are multiple lengths connecting the 2 terminals.

DON NOT TRY AND START THE CAR AS WE DO NOT WANT THE POWER OF THE ALTERNATOR TO CONTEND WITH.

Just turn the key on and see what lights up.
Turn the key off and see if the lights work, turn them back off.

If that all seems to give good results. Thank your lucky stars.

Your next step will be to sort out repairing the damage to the back of A and A1, while incorporating a big fuse, like about 50Amp.
Last edited by geoberni on Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:02 pm

darrenj wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:42 pm
Well what do you know,,,,,,, its alive so a new regulator box was the right way to go even though they only act as a contact box, thank you lots I could kiss you all, ,,,,,,, but I wont, lol,

Well done.

If you're reasonably capable with a soldering iron, just fit a 50amp fuse to the inside of the regulator you have. Why pay £25 - £30 for no reason.
It'll depend how damaged the back of A/A1 are but see this slightly complicated tale of how it can be done.http://www.lotuselan.net/forums/viewtop ... 678&start=
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darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:33 pm

Well happy that willy's running again, but will have to look into the lights at some point as still not working, wipers are going, so good start and does sound like lights may have been to blame, but that's another day now, lot of information in a short time, but thanks to all, lights are nothing if the engine don't run, have tried to upload a pic of the back of the regulator but it wont work, the bit missing is about an inch and a half right in the middle of the wire, maybe I will try the fuse but think the gap is too big, anyway, tomorrows just another day, thanks again,

les
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Re: dead moggy

Postby les » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:51 pm

Are you saying the engine now runs ? You will need to sort out the lights before you get on the road, especially stop lamps.


darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:00 pm

Yep 2 30 amp fuses, took a couple of goes to get right way round but its running with wipers and indicators now, yes will def sort lights before going on road, sorry if I appeared to sound shirty but I do suffer with severe anxiety, not that you or anyone knew that, but thanks for your help,

les
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Re: dead moggy

Postby les » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:10 pm

Looks like you’re getting somewhere now.


StillGotMy1stCar
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Re: dead moggy

Postby StillGotMy1stCar » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:18 am

Making good progress.
Thanks for posting the photos, I can (or can't) see that your car doesn’t have the later inline fuse that I thought was 15A but is infact 10A, pictured below. No 5.
Moggie Fuses.jpg
Moggie Fuses.jpg (459.42 KiB) Viewed 324 times
It just means the if there is a short on the lighting circuit it could include the side lights.

Back to your current findings:-
The two Brown blue wires supply different circuits
One does everything via the ignition switch so that part is looking good although you might not have pressed the brake pedal to test the brake lights.
The other Brown blue wire does the head lights, side and number plate and speedo illumination. The wire goes straight to the light switch unless it’s had a fuse added.
The lights might not work at the moment because you didn’t make a good connection to this wire, or the possible short has damaged the light switch.
Regards John

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:51 pm

This misalignment of the terminal I've highlighted, does make me wonder if that rivet is loose and by association, if perhaps the others might be loose too.
Reg Photo.JPG
Reg Photo.JPG (117.4 KiB) Viewed 306 times
It probably wouldn't have been a problem with a Dynamo, but the output of an alternator is significantly higher and what tends to happen is the damage increases in a runaway fashion, until it catches fire.

A photo of the damage at the back of the Regulator would be useful to establish if it is salvageable to act as a connecting box and fuse location.
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darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:51 pm

Will try and take another photo, its just getting the image size right, will try later or tomorrow as in dog house for reving the car yesterday as it sounded like a boy racer, (stainless exhaust)☹

darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:48 pm

This is the back of my regulator, knackered, as you can see A has burnt a gap and A1 has got sooty, so I think this was the smoke I saw,
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les
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Re: dead moggy

Postby les » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:43 pm

Very likely, unfortunate but better than a burnt wiring harness. Once you’ve got things sorted, it might be a plan to tidy up some of that wiring, to eliminate future issues or at least make it easier to trace.


geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:55 pm

Wow :o
A has gone like a fuse which I wasn't expecting. Is there any signs that it was touching the bodywork on the bulkhead?
I was expecting the missing section you had described to be starting at the rear of the A terminal, not mid way along.

If there is no sign that the little metal strip had somehow shorted to the bulkhead, then it must be that there is some other significant wiring damage to the lighting wiring somewhere.
You will have to find that before you move on.
You haven't established what wiring standard the car is at. Although from it's year, I'm assuming it to be the complicated type with the big relay in the Indicator/Brake light circuit. But of course the Spotlights are additional anyway.

You could try checking each segment of the lighting wiring with the multimeter set to ohms to find a dead short to earth, but you may not find it by that method if the wiring short burnt itself out at the same time as that strip in the Regulator went.
I think your most realistic option is a visual of all the wiring, anywhere it could rub or chaff on the bodywork.

Looking that that missing section of metal, for it to go over such a distance with no obvious slow heating and melting, it has been a massive sudden current that has quite literally vaporised that strip of metal like it was a bit of fuse wire, perhaps all the 50-60 Amps from the Alternator.
I am truly surprised at the ferocity of that strip going like that, I didn't think a car alternator would have enough output to do it so cleanly. I was an aircraft electrician in the RAF and I have seen (and repaired afterwards) some significant short circuit damage to aircraft wiring during my time, but all things considered, I still find this damage a surprise.


When you've sorted that wiring issue, this is what to do to the Regulator, if you feel up to it.
regulator to Alt..jpg
regulator to Alt..jpg (2.37 MiB) Viewed 270 times
Basically remove all this because you've no use for it, it's possibly damaged by the excess current anyway, so take it all out and chuck it.
reulator Alt 2.JPG
reulator Alt 2.JPG (47.59 KiB) Viewed 270 times
Now you've got plenty of space to fit one of those 50 amp in-line fuse holders inside; you can take the cables out through the holes in the base and solder to the tags you've cleaned earlier. One cable to each tag; it doesn't matter which way around it goes.
Once you've soldered each cable in place, make sure they are a good joint and each has a good coating of solder.
Make sure the solder joints are not sticking proud of the base line.

Check between A/A1 and you should have a Zero Ohm indication indicating a good connection with no poor soldering.

Before refitting the box to the car, I'd stick a couple of layers of electrical tape to the bulkhead in the area where the solder connections will be, just to ensure the connections can't touch the bulkhead.

Note, if you're buying a fuse holder from somewhere like ebay, just make sure it's got a large enough cable to support the 50A fuse. Buy the holder and fuse as a single item and you should be fine.

Any questions about doing all that, just ask.
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darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:08 pm

Cheers for that, to be fair I was surprised at what happened, will attempt this at the wkend or before if I get the chance, thanks again to everyone for the advise and help, like I said I don't know much but it was on my suspect list,😃😊

pgp001
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Re: dead moggy

Postby pgp001 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:14 pm

geoberni wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:55 pm
If there is no sign that the little metal strip had somehow shorted to the bulkhead, then it must be that there is some other significant wiring damage to the lighting wiring somewhere.
You will have to find that before you move on.

You could try checking each segment of the lighting wiring with the multimeter set to ohms to find a dead short to earth
,

[/quote]

Yesterday you publicly shot me down in flames for daring to suggest that there could be a short to earth.

Thanks
Phil

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Re: dead moggy

Postby Shropshiremoggie » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:14 pm

You are on a learning curve and the advice you will get from your fellow Moggie owners is second to none !

darrenj
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Re: dead moggy

Postby darrenj » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:29 pm

Phil, don't let it worry you, as I also got shot down for saying I found the problem rugulator burnt out then got told it does nothing and basically it can't be that, water off a ducks back, but it got me where I am now,😃

geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:06 pm

pgp001 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:14 pm
geoberni wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:55 pm
If there is no sign that the little metal strip had somehow shorted to the bulkhead, then it must be that there is some other significant wiring damage to the lighting wiring somewhere.
You will have to find that before you move on.

You could try checking each segment of the lighting wiring with the multimeter set to ohms to find a dead short to earth
,
Yesterday you publicly shot me down in flames for daring to suggest that there could be a short to earth.

Thanks
Phil
[/quote]


What you said was :
pgp001 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:25 pm
It sounds like you have a short to earth on the A1 side if you get 12V between A and A1.

If your meter measures ohms, check between A1 and earth to see what resistance there is. You may need to start disconnecting things then to isolate the problem.

Phil
Your statement is completely reverse of the fact, as I explained . If you are reading 12 volts across 2 points in a circuit, then you've not got a short between those points, you've got an open circuit. To read any voltage between 2 points, there has to be some resistance for the voltage to drop. What you read is the difference in the potential between the 2 points.

So I was 'shooting down' a completely misleading statement, not the general principal of a short on the vehicle wiring.
Last edited by geoberni on Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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geoberni
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Re: dead moggy

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:10 pm

darrenj wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:29 pm
Phil, don't let it worry you, as I also got shot down for saying I found the problem rugulator burnt out then got told it does nothing and basically it can't be that, water off a ducks back, but it got me where I am now,😃
That was a misunderstanding in that the Regulator didn't do anything in terms of controlling anything, but as I also explained, it served as a junction box. The link you've got burnt is the little strip that that connected A and A1 together, it was the only thing the former Regulator did.

I probably didn't make myself clear on that.
:wink:

And that strip of plated metal being burn isn't the fault, it's a symptom. The actual fault is whatever caused some 50+ amps to suddenly vaporise that strip of metal. :)
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