painting gold seal engine

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JOWETTJAVELIN
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby JOWETTJAVELIN » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:48 pm

philthehill wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:52 pm
The AD stamped on the engine plate means that that the engine has been rebuilt at some time.
Thank you. I have uploaded the photos in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=70661
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geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:10 pm

As with JOWETTJAVILIN, my engine is an 8G prefix, with the additional AD stamp on the plate.
The head is 2.75" deep.

Unlike his head however, I have no markings along the long sides or between the valve sets. it took me a while of dabbing oil up to eventually find the only markings are at the 2 extreme ends.
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What looks like 12G202 at the rear end....
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and a solitary 2 at the front, where externally on the tag is what looks like '1 G7'
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So I'm a little lost now, with this head, is it still a 948 engine? That's what it's supposed to be.
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philthehill
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby philthehill » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:27 pm

To absolutely confirm the engine size:

The 948cc engine has 950 cast into the block below the front cam follower cover.

The 1098cc engine has (or should have) a alloy plate with 1100 embossed onto it riveted to the block below the front cam follower cover.

There appears to be no set format for the cylinder head casting numbers - they can be anywhere on the top face of the head under the rocker cover. All other numbers are casting batch numbers. The 12G202 number is the important one.

The standard ex factory 948cc engine is fitted with either of the following cylinder heads with casting numbers: 2A628, 12A1456 or 2A629.

I like your forged rockers - they appear to be Cooper S type with the wide contact pad at the valve stem end and the larger adjustment screw at the other end. Any information on them would be appreciated.

Phil


geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:34 pm

philthehill wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:27 pm
I like your forged rockers - they appear to be Cooper S type with the wide contact pad at the valve stem end and the larger adjustment screw at the other end. Any information on them would be appreciated.

Phil
Phil
I'm afraid I know nothing of the engines history, so I can't help with any build details.
Although the car appears to have been rebuilt around 1999/2000, up until 2010, the V5 still showed it to be an 803 engine.
I suspect the engine had been changed in 2000, because the then owner in 2010 managed to get the details changed using a note from a garage, rather than any invoices they had.
The plain paper handwritten note from the garage, bearing the company rubber stamp, simply states...

"This is to confirm that we have inspected to the best of our ability without stripping the engine that the car reg ....... has been fitted with a BMC Gold seal Replacement engine no 8G162 ER56559 Petrol 948cc"

Back to current times, there's no number cast into the block where you suggested:
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There is a number lower left behind the vent pipe:
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and yet more numbers under where the drain tap is:
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On the front up by the water pump, there is a stamped number, but at the moment that's all I can find anywhere on the block.
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philthehill
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby philthehill » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:20 pm

Thank you for posting the photos above.

The block casting number under the rear cam follower cover if I read it correctly is 12A497 which is the casting number for a 1098cc block.

If that is so it would explain the 12G202 head fitted which is standard for a 1098cc engine.

The embossed aluminium tag attached to the block is just a quick and ready reference - it does sometimes get lost so no problem there as the ultimate identifier of a 1098cc engine is the block casting number.

The block casting number for a 948cc engine and confirmed from the two 948cc engines I have is 2A799.

So it appears that you have a 1098cc engine block and head fitted.

Here is a 1098cc engine block for sale on 'e' bay with the aluminium tag fitted and the 12A427 cast into the block:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-MINOR ... Sw1-1c2GCD


JOWETTJAVELIN
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby JOWETTJAVELIN » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:51 pm

Further to the above I have just checked mine and it too appears to be a 1098. Casting number 12A497. Thank you.
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geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:00 pm

Oh...Jeeeze!
So it appears I've got an 1100, not a 950 :o

I can only imagine the hassle that is going to arise when I try and tell DVLA; I shall have to be very pedantic in quoting reference material.
Do you know of any good references I can quote :o :-?

Of course the next question would be the gearbox...... I've got a long gear shift, and there is an old receipt from 2003 for "948/803 Morris Minor Rebuild Gearbox S/N PX2406" now whether that is for the sale of a rebuilt gearbox, or to have rebuilt one they had been given by the then owner, is unknown.
I think it could be read either way; it cost £350 at the time.

I didn't think the 1098 fitted the long stick G/B?
I can see me having to lift the carpets to try and understand what might have been done.
Perhaps that's why I have a chromed, non-SII handbrake lever? :o
That the lever in 2nd.
Basil is one never ending line of surprises......
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philthehill
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby philthehill » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:47 pm

To start with you have the thick 1098cc rear engine plate fitted.

Do you have a ribbed case gearbox or smooth case?

If the case is smooth you may have the 948cc gearbox with the 803cc extension fitted - a modification along a well trod path.

If you have the smooth case gearbox you may have the 948cc flywheel, 948cc clutch cover and 948cc driven plate.

The 1098cc clutch pressure plate will not fit inside a 948cc bell housing and must use the 1098cc flywheel.

If you have the ribbed gearbox you may have the larger 1098cc flywheel, 1098cc clutch cover and 1098cc driven plate.

You appear to have a mix and match as regards engine and gearbox. Further investigation may be required to confirm what you have fitted.

The chrome handbrake lever is not standard Minor and may have been sourced from another BMC model.


geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:40 pm

Thanks for all that info Phil
It makes much more sense when put together in one place, without having to search all over the forum for it.
When I get the chance, hopefully next week, I'll get the car on my ramps and take a look at the gearbox.
The clutch is actually slipping a bit at the moment if I try to accelerate uphill in 4th; I only adjusted it about 400 miles ago, so perhaps it all needs taking apart anyway. :o

We don't have a thanks button on the forum, so instead, have a ...
Thumbs.jpg
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geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:43 pm

JOWETTJAVELIN wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:51 pm
Further to the above I have just checked mine and it too appears to be a 1098. Casting number 12A497. Thank you.
Glad someone else has benefited from this lesson in engine numbers. :lol:
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philthehill
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby philthehill » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:36 am

One possibility of the source of the chrome handbrake lever is that it came from a Cooper S.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLASSIC-MINI ... SwX7BdAVhl


ampwhu
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:52 am

to check if its a ribbed box, just look down the bell housing area from the engine bay. there should be visible ribs on each side of the box and a rubber blanking bung in the centre of the box near the back of the engine. if you find neither, then you have a smooth box.

geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:50 pm

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Well that's one question answered, it's a smooth box.
Perhaps that's why the receipt I have from 2003 says "948/803 Morris Minor Rebuild Gearbox S/N PX2406" ... it's a 948 and 803 extension combination :)
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philthehill
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby philthehill » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:39 pm

But you do have the wrong rear engine plate for the gearbox.
The thicker rear engine plate pushes the gearbox back a little which makes the clutch release bearing travel further.
The thin rear engine plate is fitted for a purpose and is relative to the 948cc clutch assy.
The 1098cc clutch should be fitted with a 1098cc engine to cope with the additional power an alternative is that you fit a 9 spring Spitfire clutch assy.


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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:52 pm

on my 55' split screen, I have a 1098 fitted with an 803 box (948 internals fitted) and a 3.9 diff. This is powered by a marina manifold and HIF 38 carb. I have a custom made S/S exhaust fitted with 1.75" bore. It runs spot on. I fitted the 948 back plate, clutch and flywheel to the 1098 engine.

Phil, tell me more about this spitfire 9 spring clutch? I know that B&B do a stronger clutch plate with 9 springs for competition use (midget??). But wasn't aware of the spitfire one fitting??

geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:42 pm

philthehill wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:39 pm
But you do have the wrong rear engine plate for the gearbox.
The thicker rear engine plate pushes the gearbox back a little which makes the clutch release bearing travel further.
The thin rear engine plate is fitted for a purpose and is relative to the 948cc clutch assy.
The 1098cc clutch should be fitted with a 1098cc engine to cope with the additional power an alternative is that you fit a 9 spring Spitfire clutch assy.
ampwhu wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:52 pm
on my 55' split screen, I have a 1098 fitted with an 803 box (948 internals fitted) and a 3.9 diff. This is powered by a marina manifold and HIF 38 carb. I have a custom made S/S exhaust fitted with 1.75" bore. It runs spot on. I fitted the 948 back plate, clutch and flywheel to the 1098 engine.

Phil, tell me more about this spitfire 9 spring clutch? I know that B&B do a stronger clutch plate with 9 springs for competition use (midget??). But wasn't aware of the spitfire one fitting??
OK, between the 2 of you I'm really getting confused..... :o

If I read all that correctly, Phil is saying that ...
a) I have the thicker rear engine plate that goes with the engine, but I should have the thinner one that goes with the g/box.
But referring back to the earlier post posting.php?mode=quote&f=4&p=642783#pr642736
how does that fit in with
b) If you have the smooth case gearbox you may have the 948cc flywheel, 948cc clutch cover and 948cc driven plate. The 1098cc clutch pressure plate will not fit inside a 948cc bell housing and must use the 1098cc flywheel.

??

Then ampwhu says
I fitted the 948 back plate, clutch and flywheel to the 1098 engine. I'm not sure it that's supporting what Phil said or not..... :cry:

So might it be an idea to take the engine out and see what's what?

Might this miss match of engine / rear plate / gearbox be why the clutch is slipping again in 4th uphill, only about 400miles after I last adjusted it?

I think my head's starting to hurt thinking about this... :o
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ampwhu
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:47 pm

Match the clutch and back plate to the gearbox used. The engine doesn't matter.

I've used a 1275 engine with an 803 box. It ran quite well!

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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby ampwhu » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:13 pm

picture shows my 803 box (948 internals) fitted to the 1098 engine I built this year.

I fitted the 803/948 engine backplate, flywheel and clutch. This will be the thin plate with the lip around the outside. 1098 backplate is solid steel and around 3mm/4mm thick.
Attachments
1098 to 948.JPG
1098 to 948.JPG (132.53 KiB) Viewed 574 times

philthehill
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby philthehill » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:31 pm

To clarify my post above - you should fit the rear engine plate, flywheel, driven plate and clutch cover relative to the gearbox.

If you want to transmit 1098cc engine power reliably you should use a 1098cc clutch assy. Unfortunately the 1098cc clutch will not fit inside a 948cc bell housing so a 1098cc ribbed gearbox has to be fitted.

Whilst a 1275cc engine mated to a 803cc gearbox will work with the right combination of parts I would not attempt it because the gearbox was not designed for use with a 1275cc engine - too much power so reliability cannot be guaranteed.

So with the smooth case gearbox fitted - a thin rear engine plate (with rolled edge) the 948cc flywheel. 948cc driven plate and 948cc clutch cover should be used.

Here is a picture of the 9 spring clutch cover fitted to the early Spitfire. It is also fitted to the Reliant Kitten. I purchased this NOS clutch cover to fit to the 948cc engine I am building to 998cc tuned spec in slow time. The 9 spring clutch cover is identical to the 948cc 6 spring clutch cover except for the additional 3 springs and 3 spring cups. It should be noted that not all 948cc clutch covers with 9 spring holes have the 9 cast bosses on the rear face of the actual pressure plate.
clutch plate 2.jpg
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I have also got a clutch cover with 9 spring holes but only 6 springs and will be fitting the extra 3 springs and 3 spring cups to the cover in due course. To do this modification the clutch cover has to be completely dismantled and rebuilt using the correct setting procedure.

The 9 spring cover will transmit more torque than the normal 6 spring Minor clutch cover.

The springs can be sourced in different pressures/colours.


geoberni
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Re: painting gold seal engine

Postby geoberni » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:59 am

Hi

So what we know so far is that:
A) the engine is a 1098 as proven by the casting numbers
B) the backing plate is the one for the 1098, as proven by it's thicker size in the photo

What we need to have is
C) a 948 backplate
D) a 948 Flywheel
E) a 948 clutch plate and cover

So we presumably are much better off removing the engine, than trying to work under the car with the gearbox off.

Is it possible that the people responsible for this abomination could have fitted D & E, without C?
Or would that simply not work at all with the thicker backplate?
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