Engine cut out -fine red particles in the fuel

[svenedin]

My friend took my car out tonight and the engine cut out at a roundabout and would not restart. He says the revs dropped to almost zero and the engine then died. There was a police car behind! The kind policemen got out and pushed the car round the corner. About 2 minutes later the engine could be restarted.

On returning to my house I thought it sounded like a fuel issue. I removed the float bowl lid to check the fuel level (which was fine) and I found a lot of very fine red particles in the bottom of the float chamber. I mopped out the float and the particles. I then reassembled and started the car which sounded fine.

Tomorrow morning I will take out the fuel pump to clean it out and the filter. I suspect I will find a lot more crud in there because only the finest particles can get past the fuel filter.

I am a bit puzzled by this. I am assuming the particles are rust. The car had a brand new Heritage fuel tank in November last year, a new fuel line from the tank, a refurbished fuel pump and a refurbished carburettor. Where is all this cr*p coming from? Is it in the fuel coming from the petrol station?

Stephen

[MCYorks]

I found a lot of very fine red particles in the bottom of the float chamber.

It sounds like rust particles to me. It's worth checking the fuel tank, even though it's fairly new. If you have the same red particles in the bottom of the tank, but no rusting of the tank itself, then I'd be suspecting it's come from the petrol station. Do you use E5 petrol?

I've been having some odd running issues myself recently. I found I needed more choke rather than less to start the Morris in this hot weather!

[svenedin]

I found a lot of very fine red particles in the bottom of the float chamber.

It sounds like rust particles to me. It's worth checking the fuel tank, even though it's fairly new. If you have the same red particles in the bottom of the tank, but no rusting of the tank itself, then I'd be suspecting it's come from the petrol station. Do you use E5 petrol?

I've been having some odd running issues myself recently. I found I needed more choke rather than less to start the Morris in this hot weather!

Yes it sounds like rust to me too! I can check the tank but it is a bit of a faff to do. I'll need to take the boot floor out and then the fuel sender. All I can then do is peer in and see if I can see a rusty tank. I HAVE used the odd tank of E5 petrol but I almost always use Esso supreme 99 which contain no ethanol at all (at least in my part of the UK). It's a puzzle. The Heritage tank does not have a drain plug which is annoying. Otherwise I would drain all the fuel out and filter it.

I rather confidently perhaps took the car out just now for a 5 mile run in the pitch black and it was absolutely fine. I can only assume some crud from the float chamber clogged the jet.

Stephen

[MCYorks]

I found a lot of very fine red particles in the bottom of the float chamber.

It sounds like rust particles to me. It's worth checking the fuel tank, even though it's fairly new. If you have the same red particles in the bottom of the tank, but no rusting of the tank itself, then I'd be suspecting it's come from the petrol station. Do you use E5 petrol?

I've been having some odd running issues myself recently. I found I needed more choke rather than less to start the Morris in this hot weather!

I HAVE used the odd tank of E5 petrol but I almost always use Esso super which is said to contain no ethanol at all. It's a puzzle. The Heritage tank does not have a drain plug which is annoying. Otherwise I would drain all the fuel out and filter it.

I've heard the same thing about Esso Super, so it certainly doesn't seem to be an ethanol issue then. Very strange. I wasn't aware the Heritage tanks don't have a drain plug. That is a bit annoying if you need to drain the tank. Hopefully the particles are from an external source and not from anything on the car.

Think I'll check my float bowl tomorrow and try to work out if it's the cause of my choke issue.

[svenedin]

I didn’t know that about Heritage tanks either. ESM fitted it for me. I queried it a while later. When I was under the car doing something else I noticed there was no drain. ESM told me that the other tank they sell, which does have a drain plug, usually requires metal to be cut out of the car to get it to fit. That is why they fit the Heritage tank. Without a drain plug they drain by disconnecting the flexible fuel line at the carb, directing the hose into a Jerry can and using the fuel pump to drain the tank. The disadvantage of this is the tank will never be quite drained dry.

[KeithL]

I can't remember the exact date but from some time in September even Esso Supreme E5 will contain up to 5% ethanol, regardless of where you are in the country. 0% ethanol is no more.

[myoldjalopy]

I seem to remember having a similar problem many years ago - turned out the red rubber hose from the filler to the tank was breaking up.....may be worth checking?

[svenedin]

I seem to remember having a similar problem many years ago - turned out the red rubber hose from the filler to the tank was breaking up.....may be worth checking?

I’ll definitely check this. Thank you for that.

I am going to clean the pump out now. I’ll check with a magnet whether the red particles are rust. If not, perhaps it’s paint from the inside of the tank.

Stephen

[svenedin]

This morning I removed the fuel pump and its filter and cleaned it up. You can see in the photos that there is a "plug" of clay-like material inside the filter bung. The filter itself was completely clean. The particles are so fine (like clay) that they can pass through the pump filter gauze.

The red particles are attracted to a magnet so it would appear this is indeed rust.

Inspecting the tank is quite a performance and I do not have time at the moment. I am going to take this up with the supplier. I am going to eat my words (I have always said they are not needed and cause trouble) and fit an inline fuel filter because this muck is making it into the carburettor and causing the car to cut out and that is dangerous.

Stephen

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[svenedin]

I have e-mailed British Motor Heritage, who made the tank, politely enquiring whether it is possible that this crud has come from the inside of the tank.

[mowogg]

Did you have a look at the pipe from the tank to the fillercap? I have heard of them breaking up espeiaciallg if its an original as suggested above

[Bill_qaz]

Did you have a look at the pipe from the tank to the fillercap? I have heard of them breaking up espeiaciallg if its an original as suggested above

Can't be rubber if it sticks to a magnet.

Stephen have you tried putting your telescopic magnet into the tank to see if the rust particles are in the tank?
Or does your tank have a drain bung to see what comes out.

[svenedin]

Did you have a look at the pipe from the tank to the fillercap? I have heard of them breaking up espeiaciallg if its an original as suggested above

Yes I did. It was new November 2022. Entirely black rubber

[svenedin]

Did you have a look at the pipe from the tank to the fillercap? I have heard of them breaking up espeiaciallg if its an original as suggested above

Can't be rubber if it sticks to a magnet.

Stephen have you tried putting your telescopic magnet into the tank to see if the rust particles are in the tank?
Or does your tank have a drain bung to see what comes out.

Sadly no drain but excellent idea to poke telescopic magnet in there. Will report.

Stefan

[liammonty]

It sounds as though you have identified something that is definitely an issue. That said, I'd keep an open mind as from what I can tell, there isn't any proof that the rust you've found definitely was the cause of the car cutting out. I would keep an open mind as there could be something else causing it. In my experience, SU carbs are far more tolerant of gunge than fixed jet cabs and I'm not convinced that what you've found in the carb would have been enough to cause the car to cut out. I wouldn't rule out an ignition issue (though hopefully I'm completely wrong and there's nothing else the matter!).Good luck.

[oliver90owner]

It sounds as though you have identified something that is definitely an issue. That said, I'd keep an open mind as from what I can tell, there isn't any proof that the rust you've found definitely was the cause of the car cutting out. I would keep an open mind as there could be something else causing it. In my experience, SU carbs are far more tolerant of gunge than fixed jet cabs and I'm not convinced that what you've found in the carb would have been enough to cause the car to cut out. I wouldn't rule out an ignition issue (though hopefully I'm completely wrong and there's nothing else the matter!).Good luck.

Completely agree, that sediment in the carb would not stop the engine.

More like a blockage to the carb - either at the pump or the float needle valve is blocked.

Of course, ‘it’s never the coil’ - but it could be.

Questions like ‘was the pump ticking rapidly or not at all?’ or was there a spark when it stopped? might be applicable.

I would expect an electrical fault to be an instant stop, not ‘the revs dropped to near zero (they would when it stopped!) seems to indicate it slowed progressively, so I would go with fuel starvation.

One thing I wouldn’t be doing is fitting a filter between pump and carb - if it gets through the pump, it is fine enough to get through the carb, IMO.

[svenedin]

No it’s not. I was foolish not to take a picture. The float chamber has a clever design. It can take an awful lot of sediment before anything gets to the jet but when it does it’s curtains

[myoldjalopy]

What's interesting here is that the engine cut-out and died, and would not re-start - but was then successfully re-started two minutes later. It has run OK since. So what happened in those two minutes while the car was being pushed around the corner? Was some crud in the fuel system dislodged again, or was an insecure electrical connection re-made again?
Yes, it could be a fuel issue, but I would also be checking electrical connections in the ignition system. I have known a rotor arm to intermittently play up before failing completely, and certainly loose/faulty wires can break and re-make electrical connections.

[geoberni]

What's interesting here is that the engine cut-out and died, and would not re-start - but was then successfully re-started two minutes later. It has run OK since. So what happened in those two minutes while the car was being pushed around the corner? Was some crud in the fuel system dislodged again, or was an insecure electrical connection re-made again?
Yes, it could be a fuel issue, but I would also be checking electrical connections in the ignition system. I have known a rotor arm to intermittently play up before failing completely, and certainly loose/faulty wires can break and re-make electrical connections.

Exactly the symptoms when I broke down a couple of times in the first few months after getting my car.
Mine was an intermittent break in the Coil.

[svenedin]

Thanks for the suggestions that this might be an electrical issue. It seems it was indeed a fuel issue as the car has run perfectly since I cleaned out the float chamber and the pump. However, it is always possible that this was not the cause of the breakdown. Unfortunately, I was not there when the car cut out so the information I have is limited and as so often happens, the car seemed fine afterwards and I could not replicate the fault. I did check the electrical connections to coil, distributor and plugs as a matter of routine but I did not look inside the distributor which I will now do (it has a Pertronix electronic ignition module and a Pertronix coil both of which have a good reputation for reliability). A failing rotor is possible and I will check this.

Stephen