Remote Oil Filter Location

[moggiegeek]

I'm planning to locate the remote oil filter assembly together with associated oil thermostat in space vacated by battery. ( see separate post). Oil cooler radiator positioned in and below front panel)
Is there any technical reason why the filter assembly shouldn't be above the engine in the position suggested?
Thank you.

[Bill_qaz]

Are you talking about a filter or oil cooler with thermostat, if it a cooler it needs to be at front to get air flow to cool unless it's a water type cooled by the cars coolant water.
A picture would help

[philthehill]

As the oil flowing through the filter is under pressure the oil filter can be positioned anywhere in the vehicle. That is above or below the oil pump datum.
My own remote oil filter/heat exchanger is mounted on the O/S inner wing.

WDF oil filter.JPG (860.72 KiB) Viewed 6162 times

As regards oil temp - I had a long chat with Mike Nash yesterday as regards the most suitable oil temp for the Minor engine.
Mike has done quite a bit of testing relating to Morris Minor engine oil temps - we both are of the same opinion that the Minor engine oil is overcooled with a large sump in the air stream and large coolant capacity which drains heat from the engine/engine oil.
Fitting a oil cooler and oil thermostat to a Minor is a non requirement even when pushing hard on a motorway.
My recommendation is not to fit a oil cooler (with or without a oil thermostat) but to fit a oil/water intercooler as per the MG Metro. That not only helps to warm up the engine oil quickly but cools the engine oil if it gets too hot.
As the MG Metro intercooler is no longer available new I have used a NOS Peugeot item which is suitable and half the weight of the MG Metro item.
Here is an interesting article by Keith Calver:-
https://calverst.com/technical-info/lub ... -critical/

[moggiegeek]

Thanks Phil for the assurance that as a pressurised system I can fit the remote filter above the engine as in the repurposed battery compartment.
So far as filter location is concerned I have it located below the radiator and have modified the front panel by removing a segment of it so front of cooler has clear air stream. Behind that I have perforated the radiator panel with a matrix of 15mm holes to allow airflow. The front of the oil cooler has a protective grille.
I'll post pictures when I'm back in garage.
I installed it a while back, as in years!, but haven't plumbed it in fully. As to why given the current ideas re oil cooling and the Minor:
1) Much hotter summers.
2) Having a trailer I use
3) Living in Bath with many steep hills
4) Really and honestly I just wanted to!
Thanks for all the advice and encouragement.
BW
2) Having a trailer I use.

[kevin s]

I can't see you ever needing anything more than the modine type cooler Phil describes, It's all that was needed on an escort Cosworth.

A decent oil with ZDDP and regular changes is probably a bigger benefit though.

[moggiegeek]

Hi, if I was starting from scratch I wouldn't bother at all. If I was still enthusiastic I'd follow Phil's example.
As I've been building this I am where I am and it's a hobby.

[moggiethouable]

I am reminded of the guy who asked directions and the other guy said "If I was you I wouldn't be starting from here"
What type of engine are you fitting ?

[moggiegeek]

Hi, the engine is a 1275 A+ first rebore - Ital - thin flange.
Minisport stage 3 head, 266 cam, Maniflow inlet and Exhaust. HIF 38/K and N filter, Vernier duplex. With an updated clutch and Midget gearbox and 3.9 diff.
Currently running in. Complete with upgraded braking, servo/ discs, Wolseley rear drums, suspension etc.

I think the point I was making was that all of this is done as is installation of oil cooler - all except plumbing it in.
My question was about where it was possible to locate the remote filter - I wasn't sure if placing it above engine height would be technically undesirable. Fortunately it wasn't.
It's true that if I knew then what I know now I might not have bothered. However it is a hobby not a necessity so I'm quite happy to play and tinker.
BW

[MikeNash]

Moggiegeek,
I agree with all m’Learned Friend Phil has written above on the pointlessness of oil coolers and disagree with all your reasons for fitting one except number 4, namely “I just want too”. That’s sufficient to justify anything on a Minor and I hope you proceed and that you keep us posted with pictures of your installation.

Regarding oil temps, I’ve had an oil temperature gauge fitted in the sump for over 2 decades (it reads a bulk “after engine” oil temp) and only once has it reached 98-100C and that was on a hot August day after a couple of hours at 60-65+ mph (GPS measured) along the M1 and A1M in my loaded 1098cc Trav. I was deliberately urging it to 100C and this took real effort such as full throttle for extended spells on motorway rises to maintain the speed. The rise in temp was assisted by the excessive oil consumption of that quick but old engine, so I was running close to the “MIN” oil level. Otherwise, when on more leisurely long runs in the summer of 55-60mph with full oil I have difficulty to reach 65C, and in the winter while shopping, etc I might only reach 35-40C, and that only after an extended spell. At the moment, I’m running with the sides and front of the sump blanked off and in an air temp of 10C I can reach 65C after some spirited driving over 15 miles. I’m convinced of the value of elevated oil temperatures and will soon try (cautiously) a fully covered sump.

Regarding appropriate oil temperatures, I look to WW2 aero engines as a sensible source, for post-war auto engines capitalised on the earlier research e.g. Harry Weslake who had a hand on the “A” Series combustion chamber worked at Rolls on the Merlin. Generally, for UK, US, German, Italian and Japanese aero engines they’ll have a marked band on the oil temp gauge covering 80-105C (search the interweb), and the handbook for the Merlin 224, XX, 22,28 and 38 has a max continuous of 90C and 105C for 5 minutes. (I remember flying in Shackletons where the Griffons were kept above 75C aiming at around 80C.) In m’Learned Friend’s link above, Calvert recommends 100-107C even 120C “with a decent oil”, but overall, I favour the historic approach of 80 -100C knowing that in parts of the engine this will be exceeded.

Regarding the minimum temperatures for full throttle that’s more difficult and the best I can find from various Pilot’s Notes is a bit all-over-the-place. So for Spitfire 9,11 & 16 and Balliol and Valetta (Hercules radial engine) it’s 15C but for Wellinton (again Hercules) its only 5C and for Devon (Gipsy Queen) Provost (Leonides) its 30C and for Harvard (Wasp) its 40C . Generally, on My Trav where I turn out directly onto the A343 and have steep hills out of the village either end in half a mile its full throttle whatever the temperature. It doesn’t seem to do any harm.

But please do fit an oil temperature gauge. MikeN.

[svenedin]

Moggiegeek,
I agree with all m’Learned Friend Phil has written above on the pointlessness of oil coolers and disagree with all your reasons for fitting one except number 4, namely “I just want too”. That’s sufficient to justify anything on a Minor and I hope you proceed and that you keep us posted with pictures of your installation.

Regarding oil temps, I’ve had an oil temperature gauge fitted in the sump for over 2 decades (it reads a bulk “after engine” oil temp) and only once has it reached 98-100C and that was on a hot August day after a couple of hours at 60-65+ mph (GPS measured) along the M1 and A1M in my loaded 1098cc Trav. I was deliberately urging it to 100C and this took real effort such as full throttle for extended spells on motorway rises to maintain the speed. The rise in temp was assisted by the excessive oil consumption of that quick but old engine, so I was running close to the “MIN” oil level. Otherwise, when on more leisurely long runs in the summer of 55-60mph with full oil I have difficulty to reach 65C, and in the winter while shopping, etc I might only reach 35-40C, and that only after an extended spell. At the moment, I’m running with the sides and front of the sump blanked off and in an air temp of 10C I can reach 65C after some spirited driving over 15 miles. I’m convinced of the value of elevated oil temperatures and will soon try (cautiously) a fully covered sump.

Regarding appropriate oil temperatures, I look to WW2 aero engines as a sensible source, for post-war auto engines capitalised on the earlier research e.g. Harry Weslake who had a hand on the “A” Series combustion chamber worked at Rolls on the Merlin. Generally, for UK, US, German, Italian and Japanese aero engines they’ll have a marked band on the oil temp gauge covering 80-105C (search the interweb), and the handbook for the Merlin 224, XX, 22,28 and 38 has a max continuous of 90C and 105C for 5 minutes. (I remember flying in Shackletons where the Griffons were kept above 75C aiming at around 80C.) In m’Learned Friend’s link above, Calvert recommends 100-107C even 120C “with a decent oil”, but overall, I favour the historic approach of 80 -100C knowing that in parts of the engine this will be exceeded.

Regarding the minimum temperatures for full throttle that’s more difficult and the best I can find from various Pilot’s Notes is a bit all-over-the-place. So for Spitfire 9,11 & 16 and Balliol and Valetta (Hercules radial engine) it’s 15C but for Wellinton (again Hercules) its only 5C and for Devon (Gipsy Queen) Provost (Leonides) its 30C and for Harvard (Wasp) its 40C . Generally, on My Trav where I turn out directly onto the A343 and have steep hills out of the village either end in half a mile its full throttle whatever the temperature. It doesn’t seem to do any harm.

But please do fit an oil temperature gauge. MikeN.

Just from a nerdy point of view I found this very interesting. My Morris is an absolutely standard, unmodified 1098cc with no additional gauges so I have no idea what the oil temperature is. All I know is that in 34 years of motoring in that car, up hill and down dale, flat out a lot of the time, in Summer and in Winter (including UK record breaking temperatures) the engine has never overheated (meaning it has never boiled over or faltered).

My modern car is an Audi S3 which has "launch control". This is a setting whereby you can have one foot on the brake and the other on the accelerator to do a very quick start (it is 7-speed DSG automatic gearbox). The system will not operate with an oil temperature of below 70 C. With that car the engine oil temperature sits between 102-105 C when driven hard.

So I suppose what I am saying is, even with a modern high performance car it is undesirable to have an oil temperature that is too low. In other words nothing has changed.

Stephen

[moggiegeek]

Thank you for the fascinating posts above. I've learned loads - from historical and technical perspectives. The only way I can build on what I've learned is to say that I do have an oil temp gauge fitted and look forward to seeing what it shows as well as making sure the thermostat on oil cooler circuit opens only at the high end of the temperature range!
Many thanks.

[kevin s]

ref mike's message, the modine type coolers help to keep the oil warm on colder days, they keep the oil close to coolant temperature.