V5's, chassis plates, probity?

[busguy]

There are often indignant posts on this site relating to V5's for sale on ebay, and rightly so. There are also cases of doubts about a vehicles true identity, which again should be challenged.

I have been labelled 'one of a number of small minded people' by the advertiser of two cars on here, (see 'A'), because there was a glaring identity problem with a car being advertised which I pointed out in a very reasonable way. As the car was also on ebay I could have gone down the path of reporting it to them but did not.

As the car was stored close by I was originally quite interested if it was 100% straight which it wasn't, and the reaction from certain people to my doggedness to what I saw as wrong was a strange reaction and proved the point.

Do we want bent V5's, dodgy car identities, etc. on here or don't we?

Most people on here are true enthusiasts, genuine and honest, and I believe it is right to challenge anything that taints the professional image of this club. If it is small minded, so be it.

(Copy to be sent to the Club management.)

[paulhumphries]

My simple opinion is stay within the law.
A vehicle has an identity attached to it when manufactured - VIN, serial number etc.
This number is fixed - no argument.
You simply cannot transfer the identity from one vehicle to another (I'm not refering to registration number which obviously is legally transferable) and still stay within the law.
As far as I can see it's as "cut & dried" as that - no black area where there is scope for the rules to be bent slightly.



Paul Humphries

[les]

There are some interesting points on this subject, there may be no black areas, but quite a few grey ones. One example being if someone owned two minors the same colour, and swopped all the numbers involved from one to the other, would there be any difference to a future buyer of either car to notice if the numbers of one were sold with the hardware of the other? Would he indeed know and would anyone else, maybe as long as the numbers were in 'sets' so to speak you could say it was like that at 'birth'. I would be disappointed if it was me, but it might be already; it might be you! How could we tell, once the deed was done?

[plastic_orange]

How about re shelling a car? I don't see a problem with this - and you still retain your original number. If my car was written off etc, I would get another good shell and transfer running gear etc as I'm sure most folk would want to do.
What I don't agree with is selling V5's etc just for the reg numbers.
In the days of the hundreds of number dealers, the use of 1 good car for MOT's, inspections etc was rife, but this has probably lessened considerably primarily due to the raw material drying up.

Pete

[8009STEVE]

How about re shelling a car

If my car was written off

The insurance company would know the history of the car.

[Orkney]

If my car was written off

Think you can put a write off back on the road subject to certain tests - it will show it on an HPI check though.

A write off remember might not neccessarily be a car thats beyond using again or safe repair - you might be driving an older car say value on the book of £300, if the paint got vandalised all over and you claimed the car would be written off by the insurers.

[Peetee]

A write off remember might not neccessarily be a car thats beyond using again or safe repair

When I was last involved with a 'write off' there were three catagories of write off.
Cat 1 & 2 were physically beyond repair.
Cat 3 was beyond economic repair ie the cost of the repairs would be close or beyond the value of the vehicle.

[paulhumphries]

How about re shelling a car? I don't see a problem with this - and you still retain your original number. If my car was written off etc, I would get another good shell and transfer running gear etc as I'm sure most folk would want to do.

Pete

This is covered by DVLA -
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Bu ... DG_4022486
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Bu ... G_10014246

Seems clear to me - new body then original number retained.
Secondhand body then Q reg allocated.

Obviously real world means you simply swop over parts onto the replacement new shell and as long as you retained the replacement shell identity then no problem.
Swop VIN plates and registration number as well and then you are getting into realms of vehicle identity fraud etc which just isn't worth the potential risk seeing the insurance company will know the extent of the damage / notified DVLA that it's a write off and an inspection might be needed.
Even if insurance not involved there is always busy body neighbour, Police who might have attended the accident etc that can always shop you.

Paul Humphries

[busguy]

To clarify why I felt strongly on this case that started the thread.

1. Take one beyond repair and scrap '68 Minor convertible

2. Take one '68 2 door Minor saloon

3. Do some good strengthening work on 2 door saloon and make it a convertible conversion

4. Offer 2 door for sale highlighting that the unique MAT convertible chassis plate is with it.

Result, one 2 door saloon with a good convertible conversion and a convertible chassis plate with a value higher than it would be had it been 'just a conversion'

The Loser? Any possible purchasers down the line who thinks they have bought the genuine factory convertible

[twincamman]

This sort of thing brings the hobby into disrepute. We're already facing an uphill struggle due to increasing anti-old-car legislation, and also facing anti-modified-car legislation such as the SVA test. The last thing we need is to be lumped together with the cut'n'shut merchants.
If I see car VIN's for sale on the 'bay, I'll report them, and I think we all should.
By the way, if a car features a modified shell, it fall within the scope of the SVA test. Where does this leave saloons converted into convertibles?

[Julesgti]

Hi.

I have and will never have a problem with people asking questions and possibly making me aware of errors in what I have said / written. We are only human and make mistakes !!

I removed the Convertible due to concerns myself, of which I am looking to and rectifying if possible, within the law / DVLA.

Somebody just needed to make me aware of such issue (which someone kindly did later on in the proceedings) and therfore I removed the listing.

I am not on the break the LAW or be fraudulent. Why didn't someone just say first off, rather than having a mass discussion, creating such quotes as (Item has been removed from sale. The plot thickens!!)

It doesn't thicken, I needed to look into it further so felt it would be best to remove the item. What harm is there in that?

As to the Green moggi I SOLD IT !! that is why I removed it, and yes I did have the V5 persent and yes we buyer and seller) did check the chassis number / VIN plate etc to ensure all was correct !!! to make that clear.

Regards,
Jules

[busguy]

Ok Jules, let it rest.

If you had responded straight away in an open and honest way when I first politely pointed out your 'mistake' it probably would not have snowballed. You further annoyed me by saying the people who commented on the subject were 'small minded' which was totally unnecessary.

Just get down off your ego, learn from your foolish mistake and move on.

[paulhumphries]

I'm wondering if this has now reached the stage where it might be best if a moderator locked the thread to further comments and discussion ?

Paul Humphries

[Peetee]

Item has been removed from sale. The plot thickens!!)

At the time of making this comment I feel it was whole justified.
At no time had I made any allegations about the seller or had any idea who they were. I started the original thread in the light of the recent correspondence on this site regarding V5's and stolen vehicles. Your description needed further clarification and by raising this on this forum you have been given this opportunity. Don't think of this as a witch hunt. Now that you have explained further you may have a few more interested parties instead of a bunch of potential buyers who read, muttered under thier breath and then looked at the next vehicle.

[busguy]

I'm wondering if this has now reached the stage where it might be best if a moderator locked the thread to further comments and discussion ?

Paul Humphries

I'm happy with that.

[Kevin]

Will do