Brakes

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BaldyTone
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Brakes

Postby BaldyTone » Thu May 17, 2018 7:50 pm

Hi all, I have disk brakes on the front of my Traveller and I need to put new wheel bearing on, my question is, how do I know which disk setup it is? I’m presuming you need different bearings than the original drum brake ones?
Cheers

philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Thu May 17, 2018 8:16 pm

BaldyTone
What makes you think that it needs new wheel bearings?

The two main disc brake conversion kits fitted to a Minor are:-

1. Marina.

2. Ford.

Both of the above have tapered wheel bearings which when adjusted correctly will have a little play/movement at the wheel circumference.
The Ford conversion has a fully floating caliper with one piston whereas the Marina has a fixed caliper with two pistons.

Other disc brake kits can and have been fitted to the Minor so a picture of the disc brake set up fitted to your Minor & posted on here would be helpful.
Phil


les
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Re: Brakes

Postby les » Thu May 17, 2018 8:47 pm

The most positive way, if you do need new bearings, would be to remove the old ones and get the numbers. I realise the time delay in getting the new bearings but might be worth it.


BaldyTone
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Re: Brakes

Postby BaldyTone » Fri May 18, 2018 12:24 pm

I tried to put a couple of pics on here but the files were too big, I haven’t got a clue how to make them smaller!
Anyway I was thinking, if they are tapered bearings, can they be adjusted? I’m sure it’s the bearings I can rock the disk and nothing else is moving.

moggiethouable
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Re: Brakes

Postby moggiethouable » Fri May 18, 2018 12:42 pm

If a castle nut and split pin are evident then it is highly likely they are taper roller bearings and just need adjustment.
Take out the split pin and remove the castle nut, if the bearings are in one piece then regrease and retighten, not too tight, the position of the castle nut is determined by whether you can get the split pin back in easily, so hand tighten the castle nut, then back off to the nearest hole for the split pin.
Replace the split pin remembering to bend one leg after insertion so it doesnt drop out.
Thats it really.
There will always be a little play,but thats nothing to worry about.
If ever you are concerned after a journey about wheel bearings, brakes etc just touch the hub caps, they should be warm but not so hot that you cant keep your hand on there.
p.s. the wheel should spin easily after adjustment.
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philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Fri May 18, 2018 1:25 pm

The castellated nut is retained whether the hub bearings are tapered or not - unless the stub axles have been changed - for example the Marina hub nut is plain with a castellated locking washer fitted over it.
Taper bearings are designed to have approx. 3/16" play at the wheel circumference. They should not be tightened so as to remove play.

As regards the picture size - bring up the picture to be edited, (tool bar) left click on edit, left click on image, left click on resize, adjust the pixels to 1200 pixels on the long side and save.
The picture should now upload.


moggiethouable
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Re: Brakes

Postby moggiethouable » Sun May 20, 2018 4:54 pm

"not to remove play" quite right, which is why I said "finger tight and back the nut off to the nearest hole for the split pin."
As you know you cant measure the play accurately as you can only "hand tighten" and then back the nut of to the nearest hole for the split pin, although I am now in danger of repeating myself.
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jaekl
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Re: Brakes

Postby jaekl » Mon May 21, 2018 12:20 pm

To be clear the amount of torque (finger or significant) on the front bearing nut is dependent the style of bearing and I don't mean tapered versus ball. Just because they are tapered bearings doesn't mean the nut is finger tight. The key difference is whether the inner and outer race are part of the axle and hub or part of a separate bearing or more specifically how tight a press fit the inner race is to the stub axle. If you are using a hub design similar to original Minor the nut must be tighten significantly (your torque may differn depending on the components/design used) because the inner races must be clamped via the spacer. The press fit is to light to ensure the inner races won't spin. If you have the common front bearing design that has been used on many vehicles for many years where you typically only handle the tapered rollers and the races stay in place, then you hand tighten to get a good spin and then back off if needed to get the split pin in.

philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Mon May 21, 2018 3:38 pm

moggiethouable
The reason I included the statement 'not to be tightened so as to remove play' was because there have been some suggestions on this forum reference taper bearings which put forward the proposal that taper bearings should be lightly torqued up and with no play in the bearings or at the circumference of the wheel.
There should be no torque permanently applied to a taper hub bearing (Mini Cooper S front hub bearings aside which uses a spacer to get the correct bearing loading).
Finger tight and backed off is not sufficient to set the bearing - the taper bearing hub nut has to be tightened with a spanner sufficiently to ensure that the bearings are seated correctly and fully home in the hub and then backed off until there is an indicated 3/16" discernable play at the wheel circumference. Do not overtighten the hub nut so as to indent the bearing races - just nipped up is adequate.
If backing off the nut to the next available split pin hole increases the discernable play at the wheel circumference that cannot be helped so long as the play is not excessive. Sometimes changing the nut helps in adjusting the play.

I understand that taper bearings for use in Minor 1000 front hubs are available so the comment above regarding the types of bearings to hub relationship does not always hold true.
Phil


jaekl
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Re: Brakes

Postby jaekl » Mon May 21, 2018 9:31 pm

IF the inner race of the outer bearing needs to be removed in order to remove the hub (as opposed to just the cage of tapered rollers), the spacer between bearings MUST be used and the axle nut MUST be tightened. (40ft-lbs as I recall) Yes, it is possible to operate with a lightly tightened nut and without the spacer, but that is not how the hub is designed. However, if one of the bearings seize, it is highly likely the inner race will spin on the axle. You'd rather have the outer race spin because a hub is easier to replace than the stub axle.

In order to get the pre-load correct on this hub design requires sizing the distance between inner races. Typically, various shims are tried by trial and error to space the races apart appropriately. I understand MGB and such had shims in the original build. The unified BMC hub design that Minors have use faced matched races to speed assembly line time, "fit and go."

philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 pm

jaeki
I completely agree with you as regards the requirement for the spacer between the inner and outer bearing inner races fitted as standard to a Minor 1000 as the length of the spacer determines the pre load on the ball race bearings.
The original question was in relation to disc brakes and the two most popular disc brake conversions they being Marina and Ford have taper roller hub bearings and my responses have been with regard to taper roller bearings.
Unfortunately the OP has been unable to post the requested photos to determine exactly what disc brakes have been fitted and therefore determine what bearings if any are required.
I understand that there are taper roller bearings available for fitting into a standard Minor 1000 front hub but I do not know whether the spacer is required when taper roller bearings are used. Hopefully someone on here will enlighten us.
As regards replacing the Minor 1000 stub axle - it is quite easy to replace as the stub axle is just pressed into the upright.
I have Marina disk brakes fitted to the front of my Minor 1000 and have had the uprights machined to accept the larger diameter Marina stub axle which removes the need for the Grumpy's type bearing spacer - Marina hubs and taper roller bearings can then be used without modification though the seal part of the bearing spacer is still required as the Minor 1000 hub seal seat is of a smaller internal diameter to that of the Marina..
Phil


jaekl
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Re: Brakes

Postby jaekl » Mon May 21, 2018 11:45 pm

It's been a long time since I had a Marina in the fleet but the image of a replacement wheel bearing looks like one that needs a spacer and needs to be tightened significantly. However, I just check the Marina workshop book and sure enough there is no spacer. Do you know how much interference there is between the inner races and the stub axle? They must have been more confident that the bearing load will be enough to keep the inner races in place to resist the normally low rotational torque and just didn't care in the event of a bearing failure. The redesigned stub axle must make the difference. I see the seal will foul the rollers when taking the hub off even though you say the seal is bigger.

philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Tue May 22, 2018 7:55 am

The Marina wheel bearings do not have an interference fit between the inner bearing race and the stub axle.
It is possible for the bearing inner race to rotate on the stub axle and some of the several stub axles I have examined show signs of having done so but the result is shown only with polishing the surface of the stub axle..
The Marina stub axle is surfaced hardened and any radial movement of the inner bearing race will be a skidding movement resulting in little if any wear to either bearing race or stub axle.
The seal is fitted into the hub and the hub can be removed as an assembly without coming apart as is many the case with a Minor hub especially the inner bearing for which BMC provided a special tool to remove the inner bearing centre race.
Below is a photo of the Marina stub axle fitted to the Minor 1000 swivel/upright with the modified Grumpy's bearing adapter sleeve about to be fitted and Loctited in place. The adapter has to be fitted as the Marina hub seal has a slightly larger I.D.
You can see the polishing of the stub axle where the bearings have rotated but not caused any wear.
100_1434.JPG
100_1434.JPG (362.32 KiB) Viewed 1015 times


jaekl
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Re: Brakes

Postby jaekl » Tue May 22, 2018 6:18 pm

philthehill, that's for the clarification. I'm working on my own taper roller conversion and I'm going to keep the spacer. It's just a more positive retention for the inner races.

philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Tue May 22, 2018 7:00 pm

I have to be honest and say that I cannot see the benefit of fitting a spacer between the two bearing inner races when taper roller bearings are used in a front hub especially when fitted to a rear wheel drive car but that does not mean that using a spacer is not feasible.
There still needs to be a small amount of play at the wheel circumference so the length of the spacer is and will be critical.
If there was a benefit I am certain that BMC/BL & Ford would have fitted and used the spacer.
Having run BMC/BL and Ford rear wheel drive cars I have never had or experienced any problems with taper roller front hub bearings lacking the spacer.
The Mini Cooper S front wheel drive taper roller front wheel bearings with spacer are a different kettle of fish as the bearings have to cope with not only the transmission of power, steering loads, braking and supporting the vehicle and mostly all at the same time. The configuration used was not always that reliable.
I will be interested in your progress.
Phil


jaekl
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Re: Brakes

Postby jaekl » Tue May 22, 2018 9:39 pm

The Spridget taper roller conversion kits still use the spacer. They are still using the original smaller stub axle.

Of course it's a much more punishing environment but I just was told about Nissan race experience in the 1982 where bearings would last just two hours until they fitted spacers.

alanworland
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Re: Brakes

Postby alanworland » Tue May 22, 2018 10:28 pm

A 'crushable' spacer seems a better way to go, like used on the back axle pinion, should prevent bearing rotation.
3/16 of movement at wheel rim? Seems enormous?

Alan
Image

philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 pm

Many thanks for the information regarding the Midget/Sprite taper roller bearing conversion.

The circumference of the wheel includes the depth of the tyre .
On a wheel the size of a Minor @ 14" plus additional depth of tyre - 3/16" play at the wheel outer circumference equates to very little play at the actual bearings.


BaldyTone
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Re: Brakes

Postby BaldyTone » Wed May 23, 2018 6:31 pm

ECDF016B-49A9-40C6-A4C2-9279E6259FE2.jpeg
ECDF016B-49A9-40C6-A4C2-9279E6259FE2.jpeg (2.65 MiB) Viewed 887 times
Hi, sorry for the delay, I’ve been having trouble logging on, then I couldn’t upload picture! Anyway sorted now.
Here is a picture of my disk/calliper setup, I hope someone can identify what they are off!
I have been following the discussion about fitting tapered bearings! Can’t say I understand it all.
Cheers

philthehill
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Re: Brakes

Postby philthehill » Wed May 23, 2018 6:50 pm

Thank you for posting the photo.
The disc brakes shown are from a Marina/Ital and have taper roller bearings and I suspect the Grumpy's Minor to Marina bearing sleeve which allows for the retention/fitment of the Marina/Ital inner bearing upon the smaller diameter Minor 1000 stub axle.
The bearings can be adjusted but must have discernable play at the wheel circumference.
The outer bearing supplied with the kit is not Marina/Ital but SKF bearing part number 30203 J2.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30203-J2-SKF ... SweW5VXKDR
The inner bearing is Timken L44649 99401 L44610 1194.
I have the same disc brake set up on my Minor but with the calipers fitted to the rear of the upright/swivel.
You appear to have the standard Marina/Ital hubs fitted with 3.75" PCD. My hubs have been modified to allow the fitment of 4" PCD wheels.
The Minor 1000 castellated hub nut is used and is supplemented as required with heavy duty flat washers between nut and bearing.



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