Hot starter motor

[philthehill]

The backplates come in two thickness.
The 803cc engine backplate (Pt No: 88G226) is a pressed steel item and is 5/32" thick.
The 948cc engine backplate (Pt No: 88G226) is a pressed steel item and is 5/32" thick.
The 1098cc engine backplate (Pt No: 12G275) is cast steel and is 5/16" thick.
The 1275cc engine backplate is cast steel and is 5/16" thick. It has the part number AEG552 cast into its rear face L/H side.
The oil pump aperture and the hole for the rear main cap are orientated differently on the 1098cc and 1275cc rear engine plates.
The 1098cc and 1275cc rear engine plates are not interchangeable. Some grind away the rear engine plate to make the 1098cc rear engine plate fit the 1275cc block. Removing metal is not recommended as there is little metal between the oil pump and rear main apertures to start with and removing any metal increases the risk of fracture considerably.

[DCMVan70]

Hi

Thanks Phil, very helpful information.
I had a look today - the good news is that the starter ring does not seem to badly damaged, main damage seems to be on the bendix cog.
However, it seems that I have a 5/32" thick pressed steel engine backplate - see photo. I cannot find any markings on it, but I am looking with it in place from the front of the engine. I wonder how that was made to fit? Should I be considering changing the back plate when I get the engine out to change the gearbox?

a05a829a8e4c6195-photo.jpeg (1.49 MiB) Viewed 20858 times

I also had a good compare of the old and new starters and the dimensions seem similar, and the bendix cog would clear the back of the starter ring.
I worry that if I had a thicker backplate they would not clear - distance from front of plate to back of starter ring is ± 1.34". which is very close to the distance between the mounting surface on the starter and the front of the bendix cog.

3af2795bb1c48be9-photo.jpeg (2.49 MiB) Viewed 20858 times

From the damage it looks like the new starter is not fully disengaging... I did find the fault with the new starter - there is a bad connection somewhere, as if I wiggle the electrical input I can get it to spin on the bench - I will open it up and have a look if there is anything repairable.

Regards
David

[philthehill]

Did you check all around the starter ring gear for damage?
You do need to change the rear engine plate (with the right oil pump cover) to the correct 1275cc item.
Only the 1275cc Midget/Sprite rear engine plate is marked.
How they have managed to fit a 803cc/948cc rear engine plate to a 1275cc block is beyond me! as there is not enough clearance for the oil pump and the oil pump cover is soldered in place and is in the wrong orientation relative to the crank.
As you have a hybrid engine/gearbox - fit the new plate to the engine and then fit the starter to check operating clearances before fitting the gearbox.
As I said above to get the correct Bendix to flywheel engagement I had to insert a piece of a 948cc backplate between the 1275cc engine plate and the starter mount flange..

[DCMVan70]

Thanks Phil

Is this what I need?

https://www.morrisminorspares.com/engin ... ew-p830099
and
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/engin ... ck-p830240

I am waiting on an engine lift, but will get the parts ordered.

Regards
David

[philthehill]

Yes those are the parts you need.
You will also need the 1275cc oil pump cover
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185525845623 ... R-aP-5rwYg

[DCMVan70]

Hi All

So I have the engine and gearbox out and I think I have discovered why the bendix was chewed up on the new starter motor.
I am now retired, but in my previous oil field life this would have been classed as a "group 7" failure, or equipment not at fault - or human error!
It looks like the starter was not properly engaged in the hole and that brought the bendix so it was permanently touching the starter ring, may bad.

I also found that the failure of the new starter motor was due to the 12v input melting the connection to the stator windings - might have been a bad starter or could be something was jammed and I overheated everything - I am scratching my head with how to repair, of if to just bite the bullet and replace.

Regards and more on the engine back plate to come
David

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[DCMVan70]

Hi All

Trying to sort out the starter motor woes, I am looking to change my engine back plate to the correct one.
I have pulled the gear box, nice and easy, it looks like whoever fitted was a great believer in silicon as a sealant as it is everywhere (including the sump). There was no sump gasket, just silicon!

I also have a modern looking crankshaft seal, which is stopping me getting the back plate off. I am not sure if the cover over the oil pump is fixed, but without moving it I cannot get the upper half of the seal up and over the end of the crank shaft - anyone know what seal this is, and how I can remove?

e35261ba02606a74-photo.jpeg (1.94 MiB) Viewed 20779 times

Also, there is a roller bearing inside the end of the crankshaft, I assume for the end of the main shaft of the gearbox, but I cannot find this in any of my manuals - was this specific to an A Plus engine?

36b9f836b8f8d83f-photo.jpeg (2 MiB) Viewed 20779 times

Regards
David

[kevin s]

Thats an aftermarket lip seal conversion, general consensus is they rarely work very well. you undo the 3 allen screws hidden behind the seal to get it off then the backplate should follow.

You won't get the oil pump cover off it's soldered on.

Does it have a ford type 9 gearbox? the pilot bearing looks like a type 9 one in a alloy adaptor.

[DCMVan70]

Hi Kevin

Thanks for the reply
I have got the three allen screws out, but cannot get the upper half of the seal up and over the end of the crankshaft, and the oil pump cover stops me from rotating it off. I did remove the sump completely, but that did not help much either. I just cant work out how it went on and comes off with the fixed oil pump cover

The bearing cage, that looks like alloy is actually plastic, the oil is making it shine! The gearbox is a standard ribber MM gearbox, the whole thing seems like a bit of a bitza ....

Regards
David

[philthehill]

What a mess (understatement)!!
I would suggest that the person who did the job did not know what they were doing..
You have to remove all six Allan headed screws to remove the rear engine plate. Three in the bottom half and three for the top half.
You have to use the right rear engine plate for the rear lip seal conversion.
The lip seal conversion is next to useless as it relies on the outer surface of the flywheel mount flange to have a perfect surface.
Ditch the lip seal conversion and go back to original scroll oil return.
You will need unfortunately the top half of the rear main cap which is retained by three 1/4" UNF bolts and they are normally wire locked in place but in many cases are secured with a spring washer
Item No: 35 (No part No:) in the link is the part you need with 36, 37 & 38 inclusive.
https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-m ... 58-66.html
Item No: 35 is usually supplied with the block ex factory so not listed or shown in the BL factory Marina/Ital parts list.. Care must be taken when fitting so as to get the cover central.
Fit the original factory type gaskets well greased and you will not get any leaks.
The needle roller bearing for the first motion shaft is normal for a 1275cc 'A' Series. You need to remove the bearing carrier which is a pig to get out.
With the right engine plate the starter will fit as it should.
Fit a new oil pump gasket.
Going back to the top half rear crank cover - if you cannot get a cover you may have to re-fit the lip seal conversion but make sure that the outer face of the flywheel mount flange is perfect and smooth.
This is a better rear crankshaft lip seal conversion and it works:-
https://www.med-engineering.co.uk/produ ... n-seal-kit
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0668/ ... _guide.pdf
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0668/ ... rawing.pdf
Please come back to me if you need further details or help.
Whilst not the MED kit the video link below gives some idea of the fitment process relating to the kit you have. Note the 1275cc rear engine plate:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnOPAlVDcME

[philthehill]

Deleted duplicate post

[kevin s]

If the part 35 is the same as a 1098 I have a scrap block with a hole in the side in the lock up, you are welcome to the part off of that.

is the top half of the seal husing loose, if not it's probably jut a matter of breaking the sealer.

[geoberni]

Looks to me as though that Seal Housing needs to be rotated clockwise so it's vertical and clear of the Oil Pump housing, and then removed....

[DCMVan70]

Thanks all

I think I have it sorted in my head now!
The video shows a kit very similar to the one I have with the lower half of the seal secured to the top half by two long thin allen screws. The bottom half is not secured to the back plate - there are only the three large allen screws which secure the top half to the block.

The video also shows that the top half is two pieces, which seem to be siliconed together and this explains why I cannot get it out. I will have a go separating things this afternoon and fit things up so I can check.

Kevin, I am rather hoping phil will tell me if item 35 is the same between engines, as so far I cannot find one on line and may take you up on that offer.

Regards and thanks again
David

[philthehill]

Unfortunately the rear cover internal diameter is not the same for the 1098cc (small block) and the 1275cc (large block) engines.
The 1275cc cover has a internal/concave diameter of 54.8mm. The small bore 948cc/1098cc has a internal/concave diameter of 48.8mm.
I have also done a comprehensive search for a 1275cc rear cover and come up with nothing.
I will keep looking for you.
Phil

[philthehill]

The block in the link below has the top cover as I can see at least two retaining bolt heads - if that is the case it would be worth the current asking price
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155871671418 ... R-ii3uj0Yg
You could always pay the asking price and get the seller to remove the part and post to you at cost.
I am posting the link below as it shows a good photo of the rear engine plate and cover in place
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126172933289 ... SwaP9lSQyA
Also note the needle roller first motion shaft bearing in place.

[DCMVan70]

Hi Phil

Thanks for the links, will see what I can do.
I got the top of the seal apart - it was stuck together with some form of silicon sealant, I needed to force a blade between the two parts to separate them.

I have a few other questions if you don't mind?

1. How do I remove the roller bearing outer sleeve - when I cleaned things up, something has certainly snapped in there, I was pulling out what seems to be pieces of the race?

IMG_6840.jpeg (2.27 MiB) Viewed 20664 times

2. The PO seems to have made clearance for the oil pump cover by shaving the top off two of the bolts holding the oil pump in! I did buy the 1275 cover you found on ebay - how is it secured to the back plate or is it just held in the recess with the clamping force of the back plate and sealed with the gasket?

3. There was a lot of sealant everywhere, looks like silicon and is a devil to remove, what sealant would be recommended when I put things back together - Blue Hylomar would be what I would normally use?

4. What sump seals would be recommended, I currently have rubber ones - 167 and 166 in the Moss diagram, or should I just go back to cork?

Thanks and regards
David

[philthehill]

It appears that the return of the outer race has broken away. The return keeps the rollers in place -it also contains a seal. Lightly pack the bearing with bearing grease after fitting new bearing.
If you have a Dremmel - use that and a small grind stone to carefully grind away so as to split the outer race then chisel out. I did say above that it is a pig to get out.
The oil pump cover just fits into the recess on the inner face of the backplate. The seal is made by the rear engine plate gasket.
I never use sealant just well greased gaskets and my engines do not leak oil or any other fluids.
I recommend that you use the cork sump gaskets trimmed to length as per the workshop manual. Soak overnight in engine oil, trim to length and smoother with grease before fitting as per the workshop manual.
I would replace the oil pump whilst you have the rear of the engine stripped. Prime the new pump with grease before fitting. This allows the pump to pick up oil quicker. Fit new oil pump retaining bolts and lock washer if fitted.
Also recommend that you replace the core plug(s) in the rear block face.

[oliver90owner]

I’ve removed quite a few bearing outer races by filling the void behind with bread dough, fitting a tight plunger and whacking the plunger with a decent sized birmingham screwdriver. Mostly ball bearings, but the occasional needle roller.

Otherwise the ‘crumple’ treatment is the last resort…

[philthehill]

That roller bearing outer race will not move by any other means than I have described above.
That outer bearing race is a very tight fit into the rear of the crankshaft.
The wall of the outer race is so thin as not to provide a face to drive out the outer race with dough or similar material.
Even with the bearing in its completes state it is near impossible to remove by normal means.