Morris Minor Owners Club

Not sure why that is a sign of weakleadership? Anyway Denmark and Norway are sovereign countries and can decide what they want. So too Holland , I read this morning. My Doctor step son tells me that his "industry" are sceptical that AZ did not do sufficient trials before the vaccine was submitted for approval.

I suspect that the "more" in von der Leyen statement is referring to quantity and not effectivness. I understand that Johnson & Johnson will be available later in the year , for example. then there is the ...I forget the name now....begins with M I think , is being delivered next month.

AZ has an image problem, there is no doubt but I personnally would be pleased to have it when my turn comes - as shown in the statistic, painfully slow.

Some years ago(pre-Covid) I was discussing vaccines with a very learned medical professor friend. when I asked about which brand was best/safest his reply was simply "whichever one you can get quickest". The fact remains that the probability of infection and illness from any disease far outweighs the risk of any vaccine against that disease.

Nickol wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:14 am Not sure why that is a sign of weakleadership? Anyway Denmark and Norway are sovereign countries and can decide what they want. So too Holland , I read this morning. My Doctor step son tells me that his "industry" are sceptical that AZ did not do sufficient trials before the vaccine was submitted for approval.

I suspect that the "more" in von der Leyen statement is referring to quantity and not effectivness. I understand that Johnson & Johnson will be available later in the year , for example. then there is the ...I forget the name now....begins with M I think , is being delivered next month.

AZ has an image problem, there is no doubt but I personnally would be pleased to have it when my turn comes - as shown in the statistic, painfully slow.

I see it as 'weak leadership' because they seem to hit the 'Pause Button' at the slightest rumour of a problem. You're correct they are sovereign nations, but they seem very hesitant to take positive action. What Norway and Denmark started as lead to an increasing list of 'worried countries' over the weekend, all without evidence.
Apparently as of 8th March, there have been 15 reports of clots in the legs, called deep vein thrombosis, and 22 cases where they reached the lungs, known as pulmonary embolism. That is against more than 17 million doses have been administered in Europe and U.K.!!

All these governments are doing is playing into the fears of those that are 'vaccine wary', thus resulting in a lower take up in their countries.
This Bloomberg page is a good read. The embedded Twitter video is worth watching.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ationalism

simmitc wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:28 am Some years ago(pre-Covid) I was discussing vaccines with a very learned medical professor friend. when I asked about which brand was best/safest his reply was simply "whichever one you can get quickest". The fact remains that the probability of infection and illness from any disease far outweighs the risk of any vaccine against that disease.

Reminds you of that apocryphal story about 'What's the best camera?" being "the one you have with you, rather than in the boot of the car"

It gets worse. Now in Germany there is a temp stop to issueing AZ. This morning it was reported that UK had only 51 cases of side effects and that with far more numbers being vaccinated - so nothing untoward. The question is why have there been possible serious problems elsewhere after the AZ vaccination, when in UK there are not apparantly any problems at all?
The rumour mongers suggest that the British Govt is concealing the truth again.

Scientists on the news this evening tend to be of the opinion that the decision to stop further usage of AZ for the time being is over cautious. The virus is much deadlier than the possible side effects, it is quoted.

Yes Nickol, it's all over the news here too that several European countries have temporarily suspended OA-Z vaccinations....apparently on the grounds of a higher incidence of blood clots.

I have no wish to bore you all with my medical history, suffice to say that about 5 years ago I had a double lung embolism. Basically, blood clots on my lungs. After diagnosis and subsequent treatment, I had every test known to man to establish the cause and in my initial visit to the clinic, I was told that, in approximately a third of all such tests, the actual cause just cannot be established. I fell into that category and as a result, I take 2 precautionary anticoagulant pills for the rest of what time I've got left.

Whatever pills you take, they come with the obligatory possible side-effects leaflet and if anyone has actually read one of those, well, you'd either never take another pill in your life or you'd dismiss it as a complete 'back-covering' exercise. It seems, I can expect anything from diarrhea to constipation or lethargy to hyperactivity. Talk about covering all the bases!! I was also told by a GP that pharmaceutical companies are duty/legally bound to record and flag up ANY reported/perceived side-effects.

I'm only speculating of course, but the actions of these governments smack just as much (if not more) of political decisions as they do of clinical ones. I'm with you, Bernie, as I think there is very weak leadership not only within the EU but I would say, at it's head too.

Stay safe....... and if you can't do that at least be sensible.
Alan

Yes, all over-reaction garbage.
Without drifting off topic too far, to follow Alan's example, let me say that I take a weekly does of medication to control my Rheumatoid Arthritis.
The warnings leaflet for that tells me to avoid sunlight and alcohol.
Well for the first 30 months after diagnosis I was working in the Nevada desert at around 2,500-3,000 ft, so plenty of sunlight.
I'm still fine and that was 10-12 years ago.

As to the Alcohol issues, it seems that warning is based on a small Scandinavian survey decades ago which indicated the potential for increased liver damage. Since somewhat discredited as there was no control group and the liver damage could have been normal for the amount of drinking of the test subjects.
Again, I'm still here and I have blood tests every 3 months to check my liver function! There's been no change in 12 years.

Good for you Berni and Owlsmann too!

I count my self very lucky that with 70 years fast approaching I do not have to take anything and can still run 10km in under 50 minutes despite my regular intake of Hefeweizen in the evening.
I have noticed that in our society , there is generally a fear of being sued for soemthing or another and that is perhaps why goverments have pulled the plug , at least for the time being pending a report from the Euro agency responsible. This makes perfect sense but so too the concept of continuing with the vaccs until the report is made in two weeks time.

It is rather akin to a small wood near my home. We tend not to restrict access to countryside areas even though they may be privately owned, so footpaths are everywhere and fences and stiles very rare. This wood, is managed as a small nature reserve, such that any trees that fall down ( mostly Beech) are left where they fall and form a natural habitat for small creatures, plants , fungi or insects. At the entrances to this wood are signs that warn you of possible falling branches. These signs are actually not really to warn you but to safeguard the owners should something happen and they get sued because there were no warnings posted.
Similarly the side effects of drugs and their warning notices are to protect the manufacturers should something go wrong.

Back to AZ vaccine. My doctor Step son tells me that the AZ trials were , in many doctors opinions , slapdash,hurried and badly co ordinated. This was the reason why initially, over 65s were not recommended to have it. This is on the one hand understandable I think due to the urgency but it also explains why , giventhe new criteria, health authorities are adopting a cautios approach. I do perceive this as either weak or stong but more of the case of "Dammed if you do , dammed if you do not".

Whilst it's very easy for us all to be highly critical of governments (both home and abroad) I do agree they are often in a no win situation.

It usually comes down to a question of balance, be it 'lockdown' v economic damage or, as in the case under discussion here, the possible side-effects v prolonging Covid infections and even deaths. Who'd be a politician?

On tv this morning, several eminent and respected medics have almost ridiculed those European countries who have suspended AZ vaccines.
Whilst the UK has no intention of following suit, it has been pointed out that the decision to suspend is likely to be a setback here to those people who, for whatever reason, are already wavering.

Alan

Hi Nickol

Nickol wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:35 pm Back to AZ vaccine. My doctor Step son tells me that the AZ trials were , in many doctors opinions , slapdash,hurried and badly co ordinated. This was the reason why initially, over 65s were not recommended to have it. This is on the one hand understandable I think due to the urgency but it also explains why , giventhe new criteria, health authorities are adopting a cautios approach. I do perceive this as either weak or stong but more of the case of "Dammed if you do , dammed if you do not".

You might like to look at this News Report if you can get the page in Germany (I don't see why you shouldn't).
What your Step Son and perhaps his medical colleagues in Germany, have picked up on is
There was also a problem interpreting results because of the way the trial was run. There was a lack of consistency across the different sites used.
Protocols and practices followed varied across each, including the use of a half-dose in one.
Some have described it as four trials within a trial. It created a somewhat messy set of data to interpret.

Germany and France have supplies of the vaccine going to waste, with both countries having used fewer than half their supplies of the AstraZeneca jab so far. It has left them far more reliant on the Pfizer vaccine than the UK is.
And this is threatening to have deadly consequences. France, Germany and the other major European nations all have higher rates of infection than the UK, and face the prospect of things getting worse before they get better.

The article finishes with a quote from Prof Sir David Spiegelhalter, an expert in understanding risk at Cambridge University:

"The precautionary principle favours inaction as a way of reducing risk. But the problem is that these are not normal times and inaction can be more risky than action."
"Sometimes it can be harmful to wait for certainty. Not vaccinating people will costs lives."

Thankyou both for the update. Will see how it develops in the next few days.

I am 73 and my wife 69,we had the Astra Zeneca vaccine five weeks ago,no side affects on the day or since.

Got my invite today through the post for the first jab.
Looking forward to attending on the 4th April.
West Wales 50-60 age group.

No refusers, so far !

Getting my second jab on Wednesday.

Am delighted to have had my first jab yesterday. Feeling a touch weary today, not sure if it's from the jab or last night's red wine!

I was very impressed by the way the vaccination hub was run, a huge 'thank you' to the staff and volunteers guiding us around.

And hats off to all the scientists who have worked on producing these vaccines. Thank you!

I can't understand the fuss the EU are making. They're complaining about not getting enough AZ vaccine, yet they have stockpiles of it because they've not been using it.

if there is ever a lesson in how to totally mismanage something, they are it.
Several countries populations are already somewhat vaccine sceptic, and these governmental delays are making it worse.
Absolutely ridiculous situation for them to put themselves in....

Mrs and I are on an Antibody study and got our first results back today.
As expected, having been vaccinated 3 weeks before doing the blood sample, I returned a Positive result for 'S' Antibodies.
Mrs had been less than a week and she returned a Neg result.
'S' are the antibodies associated with the vaccines.

We'll be repeating the test every month for the next 6 months or so.

I can't understand the fuss the EU are making. They're complaining about not getting enough AZ vaccine, yet they have stockpiles of it because they've not been using it.

I had to laugh (ironic-style) today when I heard that the EU leaders were going to have a meeting to discuss the vaccination crisis.................ON THURSDAY. No rush then? It's not as if people's lives are at risk or anything, is it? I understand it's only going to be a 'Zoom' type meeting anyway. They could have had that this morning and actually have made a decision and be getting on with it...but no, let's wait until Thursday! Unbelievable!

I had to laugh (ironic-style) today when I heard that the EU leaders were going to have a meeting to discuss the vaccination crisis.................ON THURSDAY. No rush then? It's not as if people's lives are at risk or anything, is it? I understand it's only going to be a 'Zoom' type meeting anyway. They could have had that this morning and actually have made a decision and be getting on with it...but no, let's wait until Thursday! Unbelievable!

Don't worry, they can always blame the supply chain (despite having the stockpiles Berni mentions) and then threaten to block exports to the likes of us, who are now able to make independent decisions, which the EU elite don't like in the first place.
Plus we're showing them up in the process, unforgivable............
Best wishes,
Mike.