Morris Minor Owners Club

Sorry everyone...E scooters again.

The other day I was confronted by an illegal E scooter coming at me on a narrow pavement. I kept walking straight (in the new Highway Code, pedestrians are supposed to be King) and the young man riding it wobbled past me. If looks could kill, I would not be writing this now.

I saw a police officer a few minutes after this and asked her what I am allowed to do about Illegal E scooters. She told me I should 'phone it in on 101 because it is a public order offence'.

A couple of days later I saw another illegal E scooter (there are over 1 million of them now in the UK) on the pavement, and a police car (without the nee -nars on, so not going to an emergency) drove straight past it. I phoned 101 on this occasion.
The desk sergeant told me I was right to phone it in because it is a public order offence. I asked him if he had to say that because he is a police officer, and he said 'no, I am saying it because E scooters are dangerous'. (we have had at least one fatality in Notts, an elderly lady run into by a 14 year old boy riding an illegal E scooter on the pavement.)
I asked the policeman if I was wasting his time because there are obviously much more important crimes going on, and he said 'no'. He took my name, number and address.
Yesterday I saw an illegal E scooter on the town square. The rider was balancing a big bag of compost on the deck, so the whole thing was quite wide. The rider rode off up a busy pavement scattering pedestrians as he went.
I phoned 101 and spoke to an operative who sounded very bored. She took my name and number, and said she would send an officer out to the area. It had taken 5 mins to get through on 101, so the rider was probably home by then and re-potting his geraniums.
My questions are these....

If I phone in every time I see an illegal E scooter, (happens every day) will the details always get logged down; and will the local police department potentially be awarded more officers because of the multiple public order offences?

If I phone in every time I see an illegal E scooter, (happens every day) will I be noted down as a trouble maker and eventually told to stop harassing the police?

Thanks. John.

They're data gathering, without the 'data' they can't justify the expenditure.

Write to your Police & Crime Commissioner about it.

You mean the Police and Crime Commissioner who got a fine and driving ban for speeding so many times, sometimes outside primary schools?

I already have. Got a standard reply on House of Commons note paper. She is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

This government is under funding all over the place.Time for change.

stuffedpike20 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:39 am You mean the Police and Crime Commissioner who got a fine and driving ban for speeding so many times, sometimes outside primary schools?

I already have. Got a standard reply on House of Commons note paper. She is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Oh yes, I was forgetting who the Notts PCC is....

We had a local “engine room” that reviewed all calls the previous day and how they were resulted. If trends were spotted they were packaged up and allocated to community or problem solving teams for action.

Every force, division and sub-division will have their own way of doing these things.

As a side note, just because a police car doesn’t have its blues and twos on doesn’t mean it’s not on its way to an important call or incident.

Thanks MorrisJohn. I have also seen police cars going back to the station going past E scooters on the pavement....

Obviously there are much more important crimes out there, and due to the lack of officers, policing has to be 'fire fighting' only.

In a previous thread about E scooters Phil said 'the cat is out of the bag'. Does that mean we never try to put the cat back in the bag?

If one million people in the UK started carrying swords in public, would we say 'the cat is out of the bag' and ignore them?

Well the laws here in Scotland are a little bit different in terms of “public order” quoted above, but road traffic legislation is the same.

An E scooter can be held to be a motor vehicle if used on a public road. Hence the driver can be charged with a multitude of offences if caught on a road. No licence, no insurance, no number plates etc.

As for pavement riding in Scotland most likely a statutory version of a breach of the peace would be used (commonly known as “S.38”, causing a reasonable person to suffer fear and alarm). A reasonable person could reasonably argue they were intimidated and fearful of injury or collision. I’m not familiar with English criminal law but I expect that would be comparable with a public order offence.

…but I’ve been away from that line of work for a few years now so I’m getting a bit rusty. There may be other statutes better suited. There’s often more than one way to skin a cat as it were.

Thanks MorrisJohn

Is it not all covered by section 72 of the Highways Act 1835? Generally speaking, wheels are not allowed on pavements. People riding cycles, or scooters, or drivers driving motor vehicles are not allowed on pavements. All drivers who park with 2 wheels on the pavement got there illegally.

This morning I walked from my house to Sainsburys. It takes 4 minutes. I saw 3 illegal E scooters riding on the pavement. One was a young woman with a tiny baby in a sling on her chest, and the other two were (most likely) students. I am sure that none of them were aware that they were committing an offence. And yes, a police car went past the two students without stopping.

I had a conversation with a young man on my street who was riding an illegal E scooter on the pavement. He told me that he paid over £600 for his scooter from Hellfrauds (you know who I mean), and that the sales assistant told him "ride it where you like".
Retailers are supposed to tell scooter buyers that they can only be used on private land with the land owners permission.

If I keep phoning the police MorrisJohn, how long before they tell me to stop?

stuffedpike20 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:02 am He told me that he paid over £600 for his scooter from Hellfrauds (you know who I mean), and that the sales assistant told him "ride it where you like".

Well of course.
They get no training other than Sell, Sell, Sell...

Many years back I was browsing in a branch of Dixons and an elderly couple were looking for a present for their teenage grandson, by way of a CD/Radio combination.
The Sales Assistant was adamant that the 'FM only' one was most suitable because there was nothing else worth listening too.
When he went out back for something I had a quick word with them and basically said 'If your grandson likes Sport, he might appreciate AM for stations like BBC Radio 5 for sports coverage but that's only on AM'. The old guy thanked me and I left them to it...

stuffedpike20 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:02 am Is it not all covered by section 72 of the Highways Act 1835?

Now you’re asking! I can’t say I was ever trained on that legislation so I’ve absolutely no idea whether it’s still relevant today. E scooters weren’t a thing on my beat a few years ago.

You could try asking to be put in touch with your local community Sergeant to express your concerns and ask about possible police response? Or raise it with your local community council, who should have regular police meetings?

I will defend crews in police cars that appear to be “doing nothing” though. What you can’t possibly know is if that crew are working 10+hrs, what they’re dealing with, if they have struggled to get five minutes to sit down for a cuppa…let alone something to eat. Been there, done that. It won’t always be the case but you just don’t know.

I don’t see what the problem is. How is it different from a mobility scooter which take up much more room and usually piloted by the less able-bodied. Or riding a bike.

I would hope that most people would be tolerant of mobility scooters on the pavement.

Cycling on the pavement has been an offence since 1835.

JOWETTJAVELIN wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:12 am I don’t see what the problem is. How is it different from a mobility scooter which take up much more room and usually piloted by the less able-bodied. Or riding a bike.

Well...
Mobility 4 wheel vehicles are ‘invalid carriages’, Class 2 for pavement use are limited to 4mph, Class 3 for road use are limited to 8mph.
https://www.theukrules.co.uk/rules/driv ... index.html

Bikes are not legally allowed on the pavement.

Many e-scooters are capable of up to 30mph, and even 'legally sold in UK ones' are capable of 15.5mph.
https://www.currys.co.uk/techtalk/smart ... go%2F.html|

The top 10 fastest ones all top 80mph
https://electric-scooter.guide/best-rat ... -scooters/

There's a big difference between someone who is disabled sitting on a Mobility scooter and someone on an e-scooter nipping around with the shopping, or 2-up with a child stood in front of them, or just an arrogant ass who wants to do their own thing and sticks 2 fingers up at anyone else...

Thanks geo.

Where do pedestrians safely walk if scooters and cyclists are on the pavement?

The police, the RNIB, the AA and Living Streets do not want E scooters in the UK.

Research has shown that E scooter users were pedestrians and public transport users before their introduction, so E scooters do not cut down the numbers of cars in use.

So Britain lags behind the rest of Europe.

Research has shown that E scooter users were pedestrians and public transport users before their introduction, so E scooters do not cut down the numbers of cars in use.

Could you please quote your source. I'm not disputing the data, I'm just interested to know from where it came as I haven't seen it before. Thanks.

JOWETTJAVELIN wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:37 am So Britain lags behind the rest of Europe.

I suggest your view of what is happening in Europe isn't correct.
Every country is different and several have laws banning e-scooters from pedestrian areas or significantly limiting their speed.
https://futuraride.com/uk/electric-scooter-laws-europe/

simmitc wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:47 am

Research has shown that E scooter users were pedestrians and public transport users before their introduction, so E scooters do not cut down the numbers of cars in use.

Could you please quote your source. I'm not disputing the data, I'm just interested to know from where it came as I haven't seen it before. Thanks.

If I remember correctly, it was research done by the charity Living Streets.

Somewhere online (youtube ? possibly on Living Street's website?) I watched a debate involving the police, RNIB, AA and Living Streets a few years ago. The Government were involved, and the day after the debate, they decided to allow E scooter trials. None of the organisations involved wanted the trials, but the Government decided to allow them.
Sorry to be so vague...I am not technically gifted. Luckily goeberni is!

I would ask this; If my old mum was walking down a narrow pavement with two shopping bags, should she step aside to allow an illegal cyclist or scooter rider to continue their illegal activity?

Do we want 'survival of the fittest', or a society where we look after the most vulnerable people in our community?
I don't like aspects of the Highway Code updated rules. but pedestrians must feel safe.

My elderly neighbour is hard of hearing. Because of pavement cyclists and scooter riders, she will no longer walk to the shops. Therefore she uses the car. So that is one example of E scooters having the effect of INCREASING car use.

The vast majority of E scooter users that I see are not old enough to have a provisional drivers license...so they are definitely not leaving their cars at home.