Rocker Advice

[rocco]

Hi Gang

I disassembled the rocker shaft last week and noticed a lot of wear on the shaft. I ordered a new complete replacement unit from a supplier in Germany but a couple of days after, he cancelled the order because it's unavailable.

I have the option this week to get one from ESM but I wonder, if their reconditioned unit likely just to be a new shaft? It's 150 quid outlay and I am not able to provide my old one to them in exchange at the moment. I don't mind shelling out but only if it's really worth it. I think it makes sense to buy new springs and adjuster screws and a rocker arm bushes. The rest of it should just be a case of cleaning up, am I right?

Edit: eventually found a useful video of things I had not thought about here >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRJtx1E9IHE

[Sleeper]

https://www.plminishop.com/Classic_Mini ... 9-EALw_wcB

https://www.minispares.com/product/Clas ... 0to%20shop

https://www.minisport.com/12a1950-rocke ... ndard.html

https://www.morrisminorspares.com/engin ... es-p830262


Other rocker shafts are available.. ;-)

John

[rocco]

Thanks for the tip John.

I'm not looking to make upgrades or anything fancy but I also wondered if, looking at other mini parts sellers, if this type of "roller tip" rocker would be worth buying?

https://www.minisport.com/1-5-1-mini-ro ... ckers.html

It looks fancy (although who's going to see it) and if it offer some kind of increased reliability or durability then it might be worth the extra pennies.

[Sleeper]

Sorry, I'm a novice, you'll have to wait for Phil to get out of bed...

John ;-)

[rocco]

I think I'll buy a complete assembly. Getting the old bushes out and new ones in looks a pain to do without a press. Drilling oil holes and then honing them to a new shaft also looks a real pain without having the right tools.

[chrischris59]

If I remember correctly you are in Germany? have you looked at Moss Paris thy supply minor parts and could be quicker with customs.https://www.moss-europe.fr/marque-et-mo ... 51-71.html

[chrischris59]

If I remember correctly you are in Germany? have you looked at Moss Paris they supply minor parts and could be quicker with customs.https://www.moss-europe.fr/marque-et-mo ... 51-71.html

[philthehill]

It is rare that the bush in the rocker wears.
Therefore if the pad of the rocker is not worn I would suggest that you replace the rocker shaft only.
https://www.morrisminorspares.com/engin ... es-p830262
If you have pressed steel rockers do not attempt to replace the bushes - you could end up distorting the rocker. The pressed steel rocker is not meant to have the bush replaced.
If the pads are worn you can use the later sintered rockers which are very suitable for use in a Minor engine.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... o%20search
If you have a standard engine I would consider that roller rockers are overkill.
If your adjusters have the central oil hole and waisted centre I would replace them with the later type that does not have the oil hole or waist. Adjusters with oil hole and waist are prone to snapping and that is why BMC discontinued the oil hole and waist.
Below is a rocker set that had the shaft severely worn - I replaced the shaft and waisted adjusters perfect .

Rocker gear 24.JPG (791.42 KiB) Viewed 3380 times

[rocco]

Tried to order the shaft and a few other bits at ESM today. In November I was able to order and pick up and pay on collection. Now it‘s no longer possible. It‘s rather frustrating so I‘m going to use Moss or any other supplier I can find from now on. Shame really because the parts guys are always friendly and helpful - but their management aren‘t.

[James k]

Are you sure you can't pick up from ESM? I thought they'd stopped 'turn up and order' counter sales but you could still order online or on the phone then go and pick it up.

[philthehill]

Sorry to hear that
Here is a shaft which is in stock and I have always had good service from Mini Spares.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... o%20search
Whilst the above shaft is ex factory standard I always use the thicker shaft which requires the locating peg to moved to the second pillar which is not difficult to do.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... o%20search

[MikeNash]

Rocco & Phil,
I don't want to add complications but after a conversation with Phil I rebuilt my rocker shaft with spacers and washers rather than the springs. These were bought as a kit (from Minisport? ESM?) for about £12 and enabled me to get the rocker pads exactly in line with the valve tops and also remove the friction of the springs. I can't find a kit supplier at the moment but I wonder what Phil's view is on this mod today. (It's worked well for me.)

And in relation to the use of "the thicker shaft" Phil, in a Jan 8 2016 post entitled "Cylinder head and rockers" (I can't find a link) you advised that "An added bonus of these early rocker shafts is that the front of the shaft has a screwed plug (Pt No 2K4608 now obsolete) that can be removed to enable the inside of the shaft to be cleaned." This I did and what a lot of crud came out! So this seems a particular advantage of the early shafts and I'm glad I did it. (You go on to say how the later shafts can be modified.)

Regards to all, MikeN.

[philthehill]

Note:- Only the cast or pressed steel rockers can be made to fit centrally over the valve stem. Sintered rockers cannot be made to sit centrally over the valve stem. The sintered rocker is made sufficiently wide to cover any mis-alignment of the valve stem to rocker interface. Flat faced rocker pedestals are also difficult if not impossible to use in getting all rockers central to the valve stem.
The rockers work best with the pads central over the top of the valve stem.
Removing the springs between the rockers and at the ends of the shaft does remove the small amount of friction generated by the springs pushing the rockers against the pedestal .
The spacers and shims work well but to get the absolute correct alignment some machining of the pedestal is required.
Only the cast steel pedestals can be machined as they are formed in a shape (bull nose) that allows the rocker to be sunk into the pedestal and still allow clearance for the rocker.
Below - machining the rocker pillar.

Rocker pillar machining 2.jpg (77.8 KiB) Viewed 3241 times

Below is a set of rockers which have had the pillars machined and spacers/shims fitted. Note that all rockers are central over the valve stems.

Rocker spacers 3.JPG (1.48 MiB) Viewed 3235 times

Here is a link to a set of spacers and shims. Additional shims are available if required and in different thicknesses.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... o%20search
I have used the spacers/shims (see above photo) in the above link with good results.

Regarding cleaning the inside of the rocker shaft. The early shafts have a removable screwed plug to facilitate the cleaning of the inside of shaft. Unfortunately rocker shafts supplied these days have a soft steel plug which is knocked in not screwed in. The shaft is also hardened so impossible to cut a thread to fit a plug. You can get round this by drilling out the plug, cleaning the inside of the rocker shaft and fitting a new plug. I have just done this on a new thick walled rocker shaft to remove any manufacturing crud. It was well worth the effort.

[rocco]

Are you sure you can't pick up from ESM? I thought they'd stopped 'turn up and order' counter sales but you could still order online or on the phone then go and pick it up.

I can pick up but I cannot pay with cash on collection. Not being able to use cash anywhere is a line in the sand for me. If/when enough folks decide to pay via electronic means, cash will be taken away and if you ever thought you were a slave to money before, you certainly will be when banks and government see and eventually control every pound you spend. More of an off topic thread really but there you go.

I‘m still a bit confused about what is best to do about my rocker but wow, what amazing info shared on here yet again! I‘ll need to digest it all now.

[philthehill]

Whilst I can symphonise with you I have had to compromise on the cash question. I use cash were I can but use electronic transfer when necessary.

[myoldjalopy]

We are increasingly having to "compromise on the cash question". The problem is a majority of people see card/electronic transactions as 'more convenient', which is undoubtedly true - no counting out cash to make transactions and accumulating a pocket full of change. However, I think rocco's fears are entirely justified. Interestingly, some places now refuse to take cash, although I know of at least one pub that insists on cash only, which does seem a bit subversive in this day and age!

[geoberni]

I can pick up but I cannot pay with cash on collection. Not being able to use cash anywhere is a line in the sand for me. If/when enough folks decide to pay via electronic means, cash will be taken away and if you ever thought you were a slave to money before, you certainly will be when banks and government see and eventually control every pound you spend. More of an off topic thread really but there you go.

It costs businesses money in charges to pay Cash and Cheques (yes, cheques haven't been totally stopped yet) into their bank.
Rates vary, but when you add the matter of actually taking the cash to the bank it is far more convenient, cheaper and safer to use card payment.
When did you last hear of a Bank or Post Office van robbery?
They used to be fairly common.
Think of The Sweeney on TV, the police shows then and now reflect the society of the day.
The reason shops started doing 'Cash Back' when you made a card purchase, in what, the early 90s I think, was to save them paying the cash into the bank, with all the costs and inconvenience that it involved.
Some countries are further down the line than others.
When I lived in the USA, 2007-10, I continued all my UK banking electronically without a problem.
Local banking out there was Stone Age by comparison; I could set up for my house rent to be paid by my bank automatically, however, it wasn't done electronically.
I had to go into the bank and complete paper forms to authorise my branch of Bank of America to have a person write out and mail a 'counter cheque' to the landlord's branch of Citibank which was a couple of streets away....

[Myrtles Man]

Whilst I can symphonise with you...

Presumably that's by using the harmonic pulley remover tool that you mention in the other thread Phil.

[MikeNash]

And now back to the rockers . . .
That's it Phil, "Minispares" was where I bought the spacers and shims, and there were enough of the latter in the kit to do the job. And with my press steel rockers I didn't have to do any machining of the pillars.
MikeN.

[philthehill]

Myrtles Man
Well spotted.
I do like a well tuned engine.
Phil

Mike
With the pressed steel rockers and the bull nose rocker shaft pedestals machining may not be required to get the rockers central over the valve stem. It is a case of assemble and see what is required. Not all 'A' Series pedestals and rockers are the same even if they appear to look the same.
The rockers shown in the photo above are special performance items that required the pillar to be recessed to get the rocker central over the valve stem.
Regarding alloy rocker shaft pedestals:-
The alloy rocker shaft pedestals are not very serviceable, the alloy compresses and the pedestal and head nuts can loosen leading to head gasket failure. The alloy pedestals should be discarded and steel items used.
I have seen the alloy pedestals advertised as 'competition pedestals'. The best place for the alloy pedestals is the scrap bin.
The best ex factory pedestals are the steel ones fitted to the Cooper S Pt Nos 12A210 & 12A211. Unless the pedestals are required as part of say a 1.5 ratio rocker set the Cooper S items are my prefered pedestals.
Phil