Engine identification.

[olonas]

My '62 Saloon needs a new clutch!
I was always under the impression it has a replacemnt 1098cc engine, originally 948cc. Fitted prior to my ownership. A ribbed (1098cc) gearbox is fitted and the engine backplate is the pressed steel type,948cc, not the later 1098cc type.
It is a Gold Seal engine and gearbox. Engine number 8G162 ES31603. Also AD stamped on the identification plate. That refers to bore and crankshaft. A = standard bore and D is regrind size from what I have discovered.
I can't see anything on the block, e.g. a cast 950 or other plate, either above or below the tappet chest.
There is a combination cast into the block at it's back end, exhaust side.
A14?7. I can't decipher the fourth character, I'm sure it is a letter though (M,N,K?), can't make it out.
I don't know if the flywheel/clutch assembly is a 948cc or 1098cc and it would be useful to know whether it's a 1098cc engine, with hopefully, the correct flywheel.
Any help would be appreciated.

[geoberni]

I had a similar issue with my engine after I brought my car, you might find reading this will help.
viewtopic.php?p=642702#p642702

Check your Head Number and the Block Number.
Post up a photo of the Block Number, zooming in on a computer is very helpful.
Head Number will be lurking in the oil, possibly in the rear corner on the fuel pump side.

[olonas]

Thanks for the link, very useful and informative.
I'll remove the rocker cover and check the head casting. I am fairly sure, from past inspection, it's a 1098cc head. Looking at the images on ESM of the different heads, if they are correct, the 1098cc has the temp. gauge/plug hole next to the thermostat housing, the 948cc doesn't. Also the valves are retained by split collets, not spring clips, on the 1098cc head. Mine has split collets.
There's no 950 cast into the block. There is the pressed steel backplate though. Definitely a ribbed case gearbox. I am hoping a 1098cc clutch is fitted onto a 1098cc flywheel. The operation of the clutch doesn't seem to be affected by the backplate/gearbox mismatch.
I will try for a picture of that casting number, the A14?7.

[olonas]

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Cyl. head 12G202 and looks like A14K7 cast on the block.

[philthehill]

Look at the N/S rear quarter of the block and there should be a cast number 12A497(?) just below the rear valve cam follower chest cover.
The 12G202 head was fitted to the 10908cc engine as standard.
The 1098cc rear engine plate should be a thick cast plate.
The flywheel/clutch could be either a 948cc item or a 1098cc item.
Look through the L/H bell housing aperture. If the clutch cover is deep then it is a 1098cc flywheel and clutch cover. If it is shallow and you can see the spring cups then it is a 948cc flywheel and clutch cover. Both set ups will work (after a fashion) with a 1098cc ribbed gear box but not as efficiently as if fitted with a thick rear engine plate, 1098cc flywheel, 1098cc clutch cover and a 1098cc clutch release arm.
The spring clips were deleted from later 'A' Series engines and not being fitted does not pose a problem.

[Bill_qaz]

Were 1962 cars not 1098 or did the change that year?

[philthehill]

The engine change from 948cc to 1098cc took place in 1962.

[Bill_qaz]

The engine change from 948cc to 1098cc took place in 1962.

Thanks Phil

[olonas]

Thanks Phil. The car is from February 1962 and was originally fitted with a 948cc engine and no doubt, smooth case gearbox. It still has the original differential as fitted to the 948cc cars.
I have owned it for 24 years but at some time prior to my purchase it was restored and I believe was fitted with a 1098cc Gold Seal (8G) engine and ribbed gearbox (that still has traces of gold paint on the casing). For whatever reason it would seem that a pressed steel backplate(948cc) was fitted or transferred from the original engine.
I tried to view the clutch assembly through the top bell housing aperture without success but will follow your advice, remove the rubber cover and look through that left side opening in the hope it reveals the clutch style/type.
Without 950 cast into the block and a 1098cc head fitted it does point to the engine being 1098cc. Also that A14?7 possibly indicates the same.
The clutch is working fine and always has. The adjustment is fine with about 1" pedal free play. The issue is that there are suspicious noises coming from the bell housing. Something is rattling at higher revs and a random tapping noise at idle. The same noise with the clutch disengaged and in gear. It does need examination and while opened up a new clutch kit is a no brainer.
Looking at the pictures on ESM the difference is apparent, as you described. 948cc the springs are outside the cover and concealed on the inside on the 1098cc cover, hence it is deeper. I hadn't even thought of that!

[geoberni]

As previously indicated, we need to see what number is on the rear corner of the Block. The details you've posted up so far are from the area indicated in Red on this random image I just composed...
We need to know what is in the area indicated in the Green area.
Thanks

Block ID.jpg (467.24 KiB) Viewed 2792 times

[olonas]

"The details you've posted up so far are from the area indicated in Red on this random image I just composed..."
Oops, sorry yes, silly me! I'll take another picture from the rear location. I must learn the difference between centre and rear.

[olonas]

block rear.jpg (78.34 KiB) Viewed 2744 times

That's more like it. 12A497 it is.
Wrong backplate and front of ribbed g/box also visible.

[olonas]

It would appear that it's a 1098cc engine and gearbox. However, after looking at the clutch through the gearbox opening it's a 948cc clutch assembly. I did manage a couple of dodgy pictures which, to me would show it is a 948cc clutch and, no doubt, a 948cc flywheel.

clutch 1.jpg (63.52 KiB) Viewed 2679 times

clutch 2.jpg (67.94 KiB) Viewed 2679 times

[philthehill]

That is a 948cc clutch assy.
It will work but only after a fashion. Best if you have the right combination of parts.
If you need a new clutch now is the time to fit the correct parts.

[olonas]

"It will work but only after a fashion."
Explain "after a fashion" Phil. It's worked fine for 23+ years during my ownership and probably the six years prior to that, since it was restored. It is still working perfectly well except for something rattling.
It would need the correct backplate and flywheel and probably operating lever/fork. No doubt the 948cc fork is fitted and using the different release bearing spring clips. Unless a 1098cc release bearing has been made to fit!
It's frustrating wondering why it wasn't done correctly when installing the new engine and g/box.
It's a fair weather car and does very, very low annual mileage now compared to a few years ago. I suspect another 948cc clutch will last me out.

[philthehill]

"It will work after a fashion".
It may have worked fine for the past 23+years but that does not make it right.
The thin engine plate and 948cc clutch assy will make the clutch release lever move further with the possibility that the carbon thrust will go over centre allowing the carbon thrust to foul the first motion shaft. I have had in the past relieved the inner upper part of the carbon thrust so as not to hit the first motion shaft so allowing the 1098cc gearbox to fit when utilising the 948cc clutch assy. The operating arc of the release lever and carbon thrust is also wrong when the 948cc clutch assy is fitted.
The 948cc clutch pressure plate is not designed to transmit the power of a 1098cc engine. If it was BMC would have utilised the 984cc clutch with the 1098cc engine and gearbox. It is a wonder it has lasted this long.
If you can get a 9 spring clutch cover and driven plate as fitted to the early 1100cc Triumph Spitfire that clutch will fit and transmit the power.

[olonas]

Thanks Phil.
I am now leaning towards the correct flywheel, backplate and clutch kit!
Apparently those may be changed with the gearbox removed and engine in situ.
From what I can see the 1098cc clutch release lever/fork is fitted which raises the question of which release bearing is in use. The 948 is not as "thick" and, if fitted, the spring clips are not suitable for that fork and the 1098 spring steel clips will not fit between the fork and 948 bearing housing. The different forks' curvature/crank is opposite too.
Whoever did the job 20 plus years ago need their backside kicking. Must have been wearing a 10 gallon hat at the time.
In the workshop manual re the flywheel it states "When replacing the flywheel ensure that the 1/4 timing mark on the periphery of the flywheel is in line with and on the same side as the first and fourth throws of the crankshaft". What's all that about? Timing marks viewable through an inspection hole, prior to, or in addition to, those on the timing chain cover?

[philthehill]

Duplicate post.

[philthehill]

The 1/4 mark is to do with the balance of the crankshaft/flywheel assy.
To get the fitment right bring No: 1 piston up to TDC (irrespective of stroke) and then fit the flywheel with the 1/4 mark at the top.
20 plus years ago spares and information was not so readily available as it is now. The person fitting the parts may have had only the parts that are fitted or not known better.
Fit the 1098cc flywheel, the 1098cc clutch cover, the 1098cc driven plate, the 1098cc clutch release arm and the 1098cc carbon thrust with the two 1098cc spring clips.
See link for details of clutch release bearings etc.
http://gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/TO ... arings.htm

[Peted7202]

Mine does not have a 1/4 mark.