Beehive Springs -again!

[svenedin]

Bill_gaz Yes I understood. Quite ridiculous because in the circumstances they are impossible to fit. It is so annoying to waste time and money on parts that cannot fit. All you could do is trim the hook slightly, maybe with a cutting disc on a Dremel? You should not have to of course.

I complained bitterly to ESM about a completely different part over a year ago. That was about wiper wheel boxes. They apologised but they have no put anything on their website and they still sell exactly the same incorrect part. Very frustrating.

Stephen

[svenedin]

I feel disappointed. I've been missing out on the drama of beehive springs for 30 years . Some of cars haven't had them, and were fine (pretty sure that BMC weren't even certain they were needed on front brakes, though I know we are talking about rear ones here), and on the cars that I've owned that do/did have them fitted, I've always managed to fit them with a pair of pliers.

Where have I been going wrong?!

You had the original parts......

[philthehill]

The reason for the beehive springs is the way round the brake shoe return springs are fitted.
If fitted to the inside of the shoe the springs pull the shoe towards the backplate so no beehive spring required. If the springs are fitted to the outside of the shoe the springs pull the shoe away from the backplate so beehive spring required.
BMC found that even with the springs fitted to the inside of the shoe and no beehive spring fitted the shoe would tilt and unevenly wear the lining - so to make certain the shoe was held tight to the backplate the beehive spring was introduced.

[les]

I can’t fault the logic but I thought beehive springs or not, the shoe springs should always be at the rear, never the front.
However, I’m wondering if relying on the shoe springs alone there is a tendency to ‘twist’, bias to the pull of the springs. I think the beehives hold the shoes more ‘squarely’. Perhaps I’m overthinking this !! ——- but perhaps not, if the factory felt the need.
EDIT: don’t know if you’ve just added to you post Phil but just reread it and I’m posting saying the same thing !

[svenedin]

I wish I had taken a picture a little while ago when I took the drums off to clean the dust out. I was getting a strange tuk tuk tuk noise from one rear drum when travelling slowly and braking to a stop. There was quite a lot of brake dust and I cleaned all 4 drums thoroughly with brake cleaner and paper towels (no blowing dust about like they used to even if it is not now asbestos). I also cleaned the brake linings on the shoes and I noticed that on the offending side at the rear, the top shoe had a line of dust following its long axis on the outer edge. I hypothesised that this dust had accumulated because the shoe was tending to lean out and that is why I redoubled my efforts to fit the beehive springs. There was no real sign at this stage of abnormal wear to the brake linings but they are not very old and have not covered much mileage. The strange noise completely disappeared after removing the dust. I also adjusted all of the brakes at the same time of course.

I went for a test drive after fitting the beehive springs. Everything feels exactly the same (normal). I did notice that if I put my foot on the brake in a quiet garage I can hear the beehive springs creak as the shoes move.

Stephen

[minorissues135]

Is there a link for PS Autos?

[Chief]

https://www.psautoparts.co.uk/

https://www.psautoparts.co.uk/product/a ... 14/AAA4714
(Currently back in stock).

[exlkrs]

Lanes surgical forceps. Never, ever failed.

[svenedin]

Lanes surgical forceps. Never, ever failed.

Interesting. I can see that would work. Presumably mosquito artery forceps?

Stephen

[exlkrs]

Mosquitos are too skinny Lanes are heftier version with a slight crank to the body.

[oliver90owner]

It might be interesting to find out how the myriads of auto-mechanics, over the years, dealt with the apparent problem of replacing these springs? Like me, I suspect most used a favourite pair of smallish pliers (at the time) to ease the toggles in place.

[les]

From that it appears Minors are not the only cars to have these springs, if you’ve done it on other cars. Presumably other BMC range, or perhaps more widespread.

[svenedin]

It might be interesting to find out how the myriads of auto-mechanics, over the years, dealt with the apparent problem of replacing these springs? Like me, I suspect most used a favourite pair of smallish pliers (at the time) to ease the toggles in place.

I am sure that those mechanics had a very good technique having fitted and removed beehive springs countless times. They would have been doing brake shoes every day I would imagine and they had the benefit of the proper parts, not badly made copies. For an owner like me with just one car that uses beehive springs and not doing much mileage, it may be years before I have to do it again. As a consequence I am definitely not very good at it.

Stephen

[philthehill]

I do not remember having come across the beehive springs on other cars but that does not mean that they were not fitted to other cars.
The most common shoe to backplate retaining clip is the pin through the backplate with a parallel coil spring and slotted spring cap retained by two bulbous projections on the side of the pin. The slotted cap is fitted over the spring and pin. The slotted cap is then turned 90 degrees and the two bulbous projections settle into the two recesses in the slotted cap.
The Wolseley 1500 brake shoes fitted to the rear of my Minor are secured to the backplate by the pin, slotted cap and parallel coil spring.
Items No: 27, 28 & 29 in the link below:-
https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-m ... 62-80.html

[svenedin]

A quick search shows me that beehive spring were used in the Triumph TR2 and TR3, MG TD and TF, MGA, Mk 1 MG Midget, Jaguar XK120 and XK140, various Alvis cars and so on. They were quite common.

Stephen

[oliver90owner]

A quick search shows me that beehive spring were used in the Triumph TR2 and TR3, MG TD and TF, MGA, Mk 1 MG Midget, Jaguar XK120 and XK140, various Alvis cars and so on. They were quite common.

Stephen

Not “quite common”. VERY common. Ford, Vauxhalls, Peugeots, Citroens, Land Rovers, Volvos, VW just to name a few. Most vehicles (not just cars) have some form of brake shoe control.

Minor differences, but basically a simple re-fitting job. I’ve been fitting them (only occasionally) for well over 50 years. They can sometimes be a PITA, if they don’t hold in and go ‘ping’, but generally a doddle of a job. Fitting the shoe-closing springs is a far, far harder feat - and that is not exactly a difficult task!

I’m quite astounded that a simple operation results in a second page on the forum. Just look in any Haynes manual and they are likely clearly on view in the appropriate section. The manuals might even describe how to fit them!

[les]

You obviously don’t own a Minor, although not a difficult job it can be a bit of a fiddle, that's why some leave them off, I guess.

[svenedin]

A quick search shows me that beehive spring were used in the Triumph TR2 and TR3, MG TD and TF, MGA, Mk 1 MG Midget, Jaguar XK120 and XK140, various Alvis cars and so on. They were quite common.

Stephen

Not “quite common”. VERY common. Ford, Vauxhalls, Peugeots, Citroens, Land Rovers, Volvos, VW just to name a few. Most vehicles (not just cars) have some form of brake shoe control.

Minor differences, but basically a simple re-fitting job. I’ve been fitting them (only occasionally) for well over 50 years. They can sometimes be a PITA, if they don’t hold in and go ‘ping’, but generally a doddle of a job. Fitting the shoe-closing springs is a far, far harder feat - and that is not exactly a difficult task!

I’m quite astounded that a simple operation results in a second page on the forum. Just look in any Haynes manual and they are likely clearly on view in the appropriate section. The manuals might even describe how to fit them!

You may well be astounded. The problem is parts that do not fit. Bill_gaz clearly showed a spring whose hook was too big to pass through the eye in the backplate. That is not is not just a fiddle it is not possible to fit it. The problem is, people do not know that the part cannot fit because with the brake shoe in place they cannot see what is going on. Who is going to take the brake shoes off to investigate why they are having such trouble fitting the beehives? Not many I should think.

Stephen

[myoldjalopy]

Astounded? Its only two pages. Using the choke is a much more simple operation to fitting beehive springs and that thread ended up at nine pages! I suspect it would have been even longer had it not eventually been locked

[les]

That was the thread that sprang to mind ! Yes it did go on a bit but all good fun ! Anyone who’s astounded with two pages, would need counselling at nine