Rear hubs, bearings and gaskets - most amusing they are!

[taupe]

Mick

Sorry I have to disagree with you about the gasket thickness.

The gasket also fits between the bearing and the half shaft flange not clear of it as shown on your drawing....so lets exaggerate hugely and say you used a 2mm thick gasket ... the bearing would still be retained tightly as designed and the slight proudness of the bearing when installed in the hub would remain as standard.

I would suggest that if you have lateral play on your hub you either have the wrong components, a gasket with the wrong size hole or the components are worn.

I do agree that the grooved O ring seals are much better arrangement than the paper gasket only.

Taupe

[Mick_Anik]

Nick

Sorry I have to disagree with you about the gasket thickness.

The gasket also fits between the bearing and the half shaft flange not clear of it as shown on your drawing....so lets exaggerate hugely and say you used a 2mm thick gasket ... the bearing would still be retained tightly as designed and the slight proudness of the bearing when installed in the hub would remain as standard.

I would suggest that if you have lateral play on your hub you either have the wrong components, a gasket with the wrong size hole or the components are worn.

I do agree that the grooved O ring seals are much better arrangement than the paper gasket only.

Taupe

Hi Taupe!

I've just been down to the workshop to double check by fitting my original, new paper gasket to a hub, and it does not cover the bearing but goes around it. Too late for a picture now but I'll take a couple in the morning and post - one of the gasket on the halfshaft and the other of it on the hub. When it's on the halfshaft the gasket doesn't go to the inside edge of the flange.

If you used a 2mm thick gasket between the hub and the halfshaft flange, there would most certainly be a gap between the flange and the hub as shown in the diagrams I posted up. Interesting to consider, perhaps, that there'd probably be a more effective seal if the gasket did cover the outer ring of the bearing. But then there'd be a gap between the flange and the hub and the flange would warp when the wheel nuts were tightened. If it didn't warp enough so that the small gap was closed up at the point of each stud, then the torque on the wheel nuts wouldn't be set.

The gasket therefore cannot cover the bearing....everything would be skewed. Further, I have issues with the fitment of the large O-ring seal which sits in a groove in the hub. Because the halfshaft flange is in contact with the slightly-proud bearing, the O-ring cannot be compressed to the extent that the halfshaft flange mates up in contact with the hub, either with or without the paper gasket, without warping the flange. So when the wheel nuts are torqued, the torque is against rubber, not metal !!!

If I've made incorrect statements, I'd have no problem in being corrected. I started this thread because I want to know the best way to proceed when I put my axles together. But as things are at this point in the thread, I stand by my present analysis.

I suggest we keep plugging away at this topic in a friendly and polite manner and aim to reach a definitive conclusion. I wrote that for years I've been assembling my rear hubs in a lackadaisical manner without much thought for what I'm doing, and I strongly suspect I am not alone in this.

I have nothing else to add at the moment. The configuration is as it is. The frustration is in the difficulty of not being able to guarantee a good oil seal between the hub and the halfshaft flange EVERY time, instead of the largely hit-and-miss affair some of us know so well. All I can suggest is to be diligent, clean everything up well and degrease the mating surfaces, use new seals and....well, hope for the best .

[taupe]

Mick

Ive seen quite a few original gaskets over the years and can assure you that they are meant to go between the bearing and halfshaft face...in fact this is the whole basis of this gasket seal.

I think that the O ring helps as if the bearing gets slightly loose in the housing then oil can creep around between the bearing and hub thus bypassing the gasket.. the O ring in its groove prevents such leakage but still allows the clamping force to be between the bearing outer race and the halfshaft.


Taupe

[Mick_Anik]

Mick

Ive seen quite a few original gaskets over the years and can assure you that they are meant to go between the bearing and halfshaft face...in fact this is the whole basis of this gasket seal.

I think that the O ring helps as if the bearing gets slightly loose in the housing then oil can creep around between the bearing and hub thus bypassing the gasket.. the O ring in its groove prevents such leakage but still allows the clamping force to be between the bearing outer race and the halfshaft.


Taupe

I'll continue by referring to the assembly without the O-ring....

If the bearing is proud of the hub, and the gasket sits against the bearing, then there would be a gap between the fitted flange and the hub equal to the "amount of proud" plus the thickness of the gasket.

Am I missing something here ? The whole design is based on there being no free space between the hub and the flange.

Also, if assembled "correctly", there would never be any lateral force on the hub, so the bearing would be unlikely to become loose in its housing. It's a clever design....perfect in fact. It's just hard to actually assemble it all as the designer intended - a shortsightedness, I feel. Looks good on paper...nowhere else .

[taupe]

Mick

Just checked my hubs and Im wrong here as the gasket finishes short of the bearing. I do have grooved type on mine with an O ring... must be confusing it with my MG axles without O rings! I guess the sure way to get the gasket thickness right is to bolt it up lightly without a gasket and measure the gap and make sure the gasket is only slightly thicker to allow for its compression. There shouldnt be much scope for movement of the hub if the components are unworn.

Taupe

[Mick_Anik]

Mick

Just checked my hubs and Im wrong here as the gasket finishes short of the bearing. I do have grooved type on mine with an O ring... must be confusing it with my MG axles without O rings! I guess the sure way to get the gasket thickness right is to bolt it up lightly without a gasket and measure the gap and make sure the gasket is only slightly thicker to allow for its compression. There shouldnt be much scope for movement of the hub if the components are unworn.

Taupe

This is why I keep on with the thread. It strikes me that nobody here including myself had a clear picture of this rear hub business in mind. The problem is quite simply:

How to ensure sufficient compression on the gasket to effect a good seal against the oil, whilst avoiding a loosening of the hub by having forces inadvertantly exerted on it, instead of on the bearing?

The tolerances are so fine....you wrote about making an allowance for the compression....that's my gripe - it's guesswork! A lot of experience would help, but who has that much experience of doing this whilst being aware from the start of what exactly they should be doing.

Er....nobody? Certainly not me. If I started adding up my experience of competent rear hub assembly today, I'd have to wait until tomorrow to tell you I had a day under my belt. Then it would take a lifetime of trial an error to get the right feel for it all.



gasket a little too thick - good seal, not enough flange pressure on the bearing

gasket a little too thin - good pressure between flange and bearing, iffy seal

gasket just right - we have to rely on the manufacturer producing the gasket to EXACTLY the right thickness. But what is that? At these tolerances we must take into account the thickness of the bearing. Are the manufacturers of the bearings and the gaskets co-operating to ensure uniformity?



And so on....wherever your mind will take you on this .

Makes me smile, all of it, but it is important. Rear brakes, safety, cornering stability....

[Mick_Anik]

Somebody is bound to ask or suggest sooner or later - what about....been away from England a long time....ends in "...ite"....a suitable flexible sealant instead of the gasket. It would "give" until the flange stopped moving and came to rest on the bearing, then dry and, hopefully....seal.

Never used it - would it be difficult to get the halfshaft out if it were stuck on to the hub like this? Is this stuff any good?

Need to look at this from every angle....

[kennatt]

well I wasn't going to get involved in this,has become a bit tedious,but iv'e used instant gasket cement on mine for years,never had a wet brake drum.

[RobThomas]

.

[Mick_Anik]

Hmmm....I'll check this out on my axle later. Thanks for your thoughts on this. I believe the ring is held on by the nuts....not totally sure though at the moment.....not had a backplate off for a good while.

[Mick_Anik]

well I wasn't going to get involved in this,has become a bit tedious,but iv'e used instant gasket cement on mine for years,never had a wet brake drum.

Well, another post designed to depress and deflate .

I'm very sorry you find the topic tedious. I had finished the thread until Norm (aka Kerr) asked me to post a diagram, which I did. Then Taupe offered some incorrect information so I came in again to help clarify things for him. Just trying to help, not bore .

Thank you for telling me about your experiences with instant gasket cement. I hope the thread continues long enough for me to find out the name of a suitable product and get an answer to my question about how easy it is to get the halfshaft off after it's been stuck to the hub with this material.

I posted a link to the original diagrams in an ealier post. I have since added the original diagram, and a note offering free use of all of them. The original does not have pro-draughtsman precision, but it looks cute and does the job. Perhaps someone who appreciates the implications of incorrect rear hub assembly might want to use them on a website, or whatever.

"A bit tedious"....oh well.

[bmcecosse]

It's not 'a bit tedious' - it's much worse than that. Just build the hubs as BMC intended and it will be fine.

[Mick_Anik]

It's not 'a bit tedious' - it's much worse than that. Just build the hubs as BMC intended and it will be fine.

I see Rob Thomas has deleted all his posts from the thread. I wonder why?

[Mick_Anik]

It's not 'a bit tedious' - it's much worse than that. Just build the hubs as BMC intended and it will be fine.

Well, I'll leave my posts intact for openminded people who are prepared to embrace new perspectives and think out-of-the-box to see where it might lead.


However....



What a horrible, smarmy, cliquey bunch some of you are. The unwritten rule of this forum is that everybody must be prepared to tolerate insults and jibes and incorrect advice and not raise a whisper in objection. That's the reason I stopped contributing a while back and remains the reason why I will not be contributing in the future.

Rob and Norm seemed to be getting something from the thread and enjoying the analysis. But how dare Mick_Anik come in here and put forward ideas that try to put a new perspective on a Morris Minor issue.

How very dare he!

This cannot and will not be allowed to continue. We must band together, our snidy little clique, and irritate the pants of him until he goes away and never comes back!

New perspective indeed! Bah! Humbug!



I do a lot of forums covering a range of subjects and activities. This is by far the worst regarding civility and openmindedness.

So, you win....as always . Happy in your rudeness, I'm sure.

Must dash - I have axles to assemble as I intend.

PS:

I left Britain forever eighteen years ago. This kind of stuff simply cheers me up and puts a grin on my face . Now you can all band together and drive the memory of Mick_Anik into the ground with your "never liked him anyway" and "I told you he wasn't nice" and "now we can get back to normal in the forum doing everything OUR way".

[les]

There goes a bitter and twisted man, I used to quite like reading his earlier posts, but he seems to have come back with less tolerance. It's only to be expected that people will take different views on things. It's a shame.

[aupickup]

it is a shame

[bmcecosse]

Your Last Post (hopefully) has been reported Mick - thanks for the comments. It WAS indeed incorrect assembly as I stated ages ago.......and it's hard for any of us to diagnose problems when given incorrect and misleading information. (1/8" wide mark in brake drum etc..) We do our best ....

[kennatt]

well Thats why I didn't want to get involved,and gasket cement is easily separated dosen't bond the flanges.Time the moderator locked this thread,before the insults become personal.

[Mick_Anik]

Your Last Post (hopefully) has been reported Mick - thanks for the comments. It WAS indeed incorrect assembly as I stated ages ago.......and it's hard for any of us to diagnose problems when given incorrect and misleading information. (1/8" wide mark in brake drum etc..) We do our best ....

For your information....

I removed the reference to the mark in the brake drum together with the link to a photograph of it a couple of days ago, and soon as I realized their irrelevance to the issue. There is no incorrect or misleading information from me in this thread. But please feel free to infer that there is. I'm sure the moderators won't mind. I'll stop posting in this forum as soon as the slurs end.

You WERE indeed correct when you wrote that the problem of sliding hubs was caused by incorrect assembly. How brilliant! Unfortunately, you failed to tell us anything more than this. It's the same as telling someone why their car won't start:

"There is something wrong."



Thank you, Kennat, for finally answering a question I posed a while back. I'll look elsewhere for the name of a suitable product.

I kept posting in this thread because nobody at all came in to say:

"Ah, yes. Sliding hubs. Check that the halfshaft gasket isn't too thick. That could make the wheel push the hub loose on its bearing."

Finally, Rob Thomas deletes all his posts in the thread and nobody bats an eyelid. The guy has made over 400 posts here, but nobody seems to care that he pulled out his input to this thread. Seems like you're no-one here until you achieve a five-figure post count.


And no, Les, not bitter and twisted. This thread was doomed to its fate from the start. I kept plodding on, and the replies became more and more negative and flippant. Check out the whole thread, see if I'm lying. I just had my say - it's an open forum....er....well, in a way....nearly.

How right you are, Kennat:

"Time the moderator locked this thread,before the insults become personal."

Too late for that, I'm afraid. But, yes, lock the thread.....destroy it! Can't have someone we hardly know coming into OUR forum and telling US about Morris Minor issues we hadn't been aware of. Just not cricket!

[bpr81a]

Much personal abuse has already been removed. I don't think anyone is likely to add anything further that's actually interesting or relevant


Update

Rob Thomas has asked me to make it clear that it was not his posts that were considered abusive