No power to ignition intermittently

[catherinewren]

Hello

So..... Got the indicator stalk working, Charles ware connected up the oil gauge sensor. I get home yesterday and she stops working. No power to the ignition. Moved some things in the engine (mainly wires from fuse box and motor for wiper squirty thing), could hear the power starting again. Then she stopped, no power to ignition again. Then she started again. Any ideas? I thought maybe Charles wares knocked something whole fixing the sensor to the oil tank and wiring it. Also the yellow and black wire (in the picture), what should it be connected too? Also have been advised to get an electric ignition and alternator as this would help the problem of power getting to the ignition. What do you think?

[SteveClem]

It could be any number of things,Catherine. I've been pretty happy with the work that Ware's have done for me in the past but like any garage they will only attend to the issues that you specify. You have bought a lovely old car that will be carrying an unknown amount of 'baggage' from its previous life...
I suggest that you get a trusted local mechanic (preferably a more mature person who worked on cars of this age when they were mainstream) to give the whole vehicle a health check. He will likely come up with a list of things that can be prioritised.
When a Minor is properly sorted out it is a very reliable and simple car but the journey to get there can be terribly frustrating and quite expensive.
I bought a rebuilt Traveller from Wares about 7 years ago and it's been extremely good...not perfect,but I use it as my main car and feel totally confident to drive it anywhere. However I use my local backstreet garage to do jobs on it that I can't handle. They are cheap and enthusiastic about classic cars..£35 an hour!
It's worth fighting through the initial pain, honestly!

[Trickydicky]

Clearly you have an intermittent faulty connection, can you determine if it is a connection attached to the fuse box? Wiring problems in a car of this age can be common as the wires overtime can become brittle creating intermittent faults.

[panky]

Try taking the two fuses out and cleaning the contacts, same thing happens to me very occasionally

[oliver90owner]

What you need is a meter for checking voltages within the system or a small test light which will serve the same purpose. You can then start working along the wiring joints in the wiring loom until the lamp lights when connected between the test point and a good earth contact, or does not light (depending on where you start the testing procedure). That will most likely be a problem location.

Best start with the lamp lighting, so you know everything tested is live as you work towards the faulty end (after determining there is no voltage where required).. Starting from the destination end could still mean one of the test points is still faulty (2 faults in the same circuit is not usual but can occur).

Is this the ignition coil and distributor that has no power? Or power to/from the 'ignition switch'? Most likely you have a poor connection to the coil, I am guessing. With these old cars the bullet type connectors can become loose fitting or corroded and the more modern spade connectors can need 'tightening up' after being removed and refitted over years of service. Crimped wire connections are another possible failing point and brittle wires, as posted earlier, can be yet another. Isolating the problem is usually half the job done.

RAB

[liammonty]

Regarding your question about getting an alternator and electronic ignition, they will make no difference to your particular problem, so I'd save your money and buy something eĺse instead!

[RobThomas]

The ignition system is as foolproof as anyone could make it. Battery power to the ignition switch, switch to fuel pump and ignition coil. For the ignition to fail all on its' own you'd have a fault between the ignition switch and the distributor and if the fuel pump failed at the same time you have a problem between the battery and the switch.
Check...

Both battery terminals are not covered in cruddy corrosion. Clean them with Bicarbonate of soda soaked into a rag and wiped around to expel any acid. Tighten terminals without accidentally electrocuting yourself! Ensure both ends of battery cables are securely held.

Brown wires carry lots of current and the terminals need to be clean and tight. Pull off one at a time, Bicarb, pinch with little pliers if necessary to get a good fit and then replace.

Take Yoga lessons and get you head + torch + mirror to see if the terminals on the back of the ignition switch are good. I assume from the details before that you car is circa 1967/8/9?

Check that any white and green wires in the engine bay (Coil, fuel pump, washer bottle) are also making good connections. Degreaser and then Bicarb. Fairy Liquid and Vanish work reasonably well or Jizer if you want the pukka stuff.

If the fuel pump stops ticking during these breakdowns then we can narrow the fault down.

Much easier to chat over the phone if you still need some pointers, although I'm out tonight having some more wonderful injections into my toes. Eeek!

Cheers

Rob

[simmitc]

I'm sorry, but the original question is (to me) somewhat garbled. I don't understand the reference to an oil tank, and don't see how anyone can hear the power starting. If you have moved wires around the fuse box then you could have changed circuits from fused to unfused and vice versa, or even from switched to un switched and vice versa. I really can't decide if it's meant to be a humorous post or not. However, I think that the issue is one of the car not starting every time you want it to? We'll certainly do our best to get things sorted for you.

It would be a good idea to have a look at the wiring diagram here: http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=28295 and check that the connections that you have moved are back in the right place.

The ignition circuit is not fused, so the fuses will not affect it.

The symptoms that you describe suggest either a loose connection or a failing condenser. Have a look at the connections on the coil and make sure that they are not loose. Examine the wires for loose crimps and/or broken insulation. Check the terminal on the side of the distributor. Also look inside the distributor – there is a small wire that should be riveted securely to the base plate. There has been a spate of these becoming loose. Change the condenser.

Is the problem related to temperature – you need to use the choke to start when the engine is cold, but it should be pushed back in once warm.

It could be a faulty ignition switch.

You really need a multimeter so that you can check for power and continuity.

Is the engine spinning over on the starter and not firing, or not turning over? Is it firing but not running?

Have you tried hitting the fuel pump? It should tick when you first switch on the ignition, then stop, and then tick continuously when the engine is running. If it stops ticking then there will be no fuel delivered and the engine will stop. Hitting the pump can make it run again, at least for a while.

Test every other circuit on the car and note if there are any that are not working - indicators, brake lights, side lights, headlamps, interior lamp, heater fan, wipers (+ electric washers if fitted).

An alternator will not make any difference to the ignition problem, but is the dynamo charging the battery - when the engine is running, do the headlamps get brighter when you rev the engine? If there is no charge then the battery will go flat and the engine will stop.

Sorry that there’s so much to look at, but we need to clearly define the problem and narrow down the search area. These cars are reliable and simple to work on, so we will get it running for you.

[SteveClem]

Steady on chaps! I suspect that Catherine has little knowledge of minor terminology and could easily get overwhelmed with talk of multimeters etc. All good advice but thinking back to when I started with old cars...didn't know my multimeter from my elbow.

[RobThomas]

Clarity makes it all a lot easier to diagnose over the internet. The way I read the original post was that the car would ie and then after a wiggle the fuel pump would start to tick again.

Does anyone have a lovely, clear photo of the wires running through the bulkhead on a later car with the RB106-2 regulator? It would be nice to have one handy to show where the wires are meant to go. This is the Lowlight with the fusebox built into the Regulator box, so quite different.[frame][/frame]

[RobThomas]

I'm guessing this one is about 1964? No fuse for the sidelights.

[RobThomas]

Interesting potential disaster area I found on my studies of the later RB106-2 regulators fitted to later cars...

The 106-2 is designed to work with the later C40 dynamo but not the earlier C39 version. Doesn't seem to be too big an issue in practice but the reasoning is that the C40 produces more max current and thus fewer windings are wanted round the regulator coil. All RB regulators are designed to work with a specific car so there are no GENERIC regulators. They might look the same but they'll not work the same. The correct spec for the Minor is to have about 13 turns on the cut-out and 3+1 turns on the regulator. The Bentley, for example, has just one turn on the regulator coil as a give-away for identification purposes. The part number on the back of the regulator should help. I have the correct Minor numbers written down (somewhere).

As for the potential disaster, the original wiring loom for the regulator with push-on terminals has a different plastic cover over the wiring terminal for the middle (F terminal) wire. The reason is that if you mixed the F wire with any others you could fry everything, hence BMC/Lucas designed a different terminal cover to stop the F wire from fitting anywhere else.

Also, later Minors had a vertical crease in the bulkhead behind the regulator. Took ages to work out why they did it. It lets the heat out from under the reguator where the 60 ohm resistor sits. Reduces burn-outs.

Rob

[beero]

Hi Catherine, when you say no power to ignition do you mean no ignition lights on the dash?
When you fiddled with the wires and you could hear the power come back on, what exactly could you hear?
Was it the pump ticking?

If so it does sound like you have a bad connection somewhere around the area you were touching the wires.

[BrianHawley]

Doesn't sound particularly serious.

Whatever causes the power to come and go when you wiggle it is likely loose, corroded or broken.

Figure out what it is, then tighten or repair it (with the battery disconnected) and you should be good to go.

Good luck!

[kennatt]

too much advice given given/........ Just answer one question at a time Catherine First.......... when its NOT working and switched on, do you have a red ignition light and oil warning light in the speedo on or off.